West Virginia OLB/DE Bruce Irvin

[Zardnok]

I recently spent an evening studying up on Bruce Irvin for the SaintsReport mock draft. I am running the Patriots again this season and was anxiously awaiting pick 62 and Shea McClellin. The Texans snatched McClellin right in front of me, so I was forced to drop down my draft board for my selection. The choice for me came down between Bobbie Massey OT from Ole Miss and Bruce Irvin OLB WVU.

The more I read about Irvin, the more I decided the risk was too great. His past I had decided to overlook, but the recent arrest was a major red flag. Athletically, he is special, but raw. Too raw. He said it himself, at WVU they preached attacking the run first and did no pass rush drills or training. He has been surviving on his raw athleticism and natural talent. That doesn't work in the NFL. You have to use proper technique in order to create penetration and get pressure and he doesn't even know what proper technique is. His learning curve is going to be much larger and he may not even be able to contribute for a year or two, despite his immense physical talents.

The Saints picked up a kid named Junior Galette 2 years ago as an UDFA out of Temple/Stillman. He is an immense physical specimen with incredible raw talent, but he had never been trained in proper technique. In 2 years, Junior has played in 20 games with 23 tackles and 4.5 sacks. This season he looks to finally be our 3rd down rushing specialist. Do the Patriots have 3 years to develop a pass rusher and would they spend a high pick on someone needing that long?

Off-field concerns + an extended learning curve = Too much risk in my opinion at #62 or before. Maybe later, but he won't be there later. Let someone else take the risk IMO. I selected Bobbie Massey instead and am happy with that choice. Irvin went 5 picks later to a GM that was most excited he fell. Hopefully Kyle Wilber slips to the bottom of the 3rd.

 

[manxman2601]

That's the way I feel about the slow guy from Boise, Shea "Wait for me Brandon Spikes and Jermaine Cunningham" McClellin.

And notice they agree with both of us:

ProFootballWeekly.com - PFW's exclusive draft value chart

But the upside of Irvin is so very much higher than McClellin's. Compare their Combine results.

Your super fast Bruce Irvin had a 1.57 10 yard split. Same as...guess who? Yup, Shea McLellin. My guy Ronnell Lewis had a 1.60. So unless our OLB's are running 40 yards downfield, Irvin's speed advantage over the others is irrelevant. Mind you, with his weakness in the run game, Bruce Irvin might have to run 40 yards downfield regularly to try and catch the RB that ran through the hole created by blocking Irvin

And FWIW, scout.com doesn't have Bruce Irvin in their top 100. Shea McLellin otoh is @36 and Ronnell Lewis @48.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

Irvin stated that he weighed roughly 225-230 during his senior season. He weighed in at 245 during the combine, so core strength, his biggest flaw, will be vastly improved. No doubt his hands need to get better as well, but his raw ability is fascinating. For a guy who is just improvising to get to the quarterback, he does pretty well. The 40 speed translates pretty clearly into his game when he cuts on a dime and has his blocker stumbling the other way.

The criminal background is a concern, for sure, even if he slipped on a banana peel and flew into the sign he apparently destroyed, because Goodell will have the letter head all filled out to suspend him the first time he jaywalks. He is a pretty articulate guy though. He majored in sociology.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Aaron Maybin 2.0.

 

[captain stone]

But they may go for Jones from 'Cuse in the late 1st.

That would be a terrible waste of a 1st-round pick.
Chandler Jones isn't worthy of our 48th pick, never mind our 31st.

 

[captain stone]

The league is now a passing league. I would be very happy if the Patriots took Irvin with any pick. With all of the rules coming out to protect receivers and QBs, explosive atheletes on the edge are becoming much more valuable than edge setting run stuffers. You can scheme to stop the run a lot easier than you can scheme to get after the QB. To do that you must have players that can win one on one battles. The Pats' problem is they have too few players that can do that. Irvin can do that as well as any player in this draft.

Last year teams threw on the Pats 619 times compared to 405 running plays. What good did "edge setters" do for us when teams threw over 60% of the time? With the Pats offense, teams will have to throw to keep up or catch up. The PAtriots averaged 32 pts/game last season. Teams are not going to consistently beat them running the ball at Bruce Irvin. In my opinion, the "edge setters" should now be the situational guys, and the players like Irvin be the primary three down men. If a team is a gashing you with running plays you put in your situational edge setter, instead of waiting for a Chad Henne to complete 12 passes in a row before you put in a pass rusher. The Pats need more explosive players in the front 7. Right now they have none. Irvin would change that.

Except for taking Irvin w/ any pick (I wouldn't use either 27 or 31 on him), I am in 100%,
unequivocal, whole-hearted agreement.

Pass-Rushers are now 2-down players at Least.
Edge-Setters are now 2-down players at Most.

The sooner that our genius HC realizes this Fact, the better for any chances we may have
of actually, you know, winning another SB in our lifetimes.

 

[captain stone]

Well they helped get us to the SB for one.

And they helped us lose another SB, for another.

 

[Sciz]

Except for taking Irvin w/ any pick (I wouldn't use either 27 or 31 on him), I am in 100%,
unequivocal, whole-hearted agreement.

Pass-Rushers are now 2-down players at Least.
Edge-Setters are now 2-down players at Most.

The sooner that our genius HC realizes this Fact, the better for any chances we may have
of actually, you know, winning another SB in our lifetimes.

You can teach most edge-setters to rush the passer. Vrabel definitely learned how to, and even Ninkovich's pass rushing productivity is improving with time. You just can't teach a completely undersized pass rusher how to set the edge, though.

 

[State]

I still think he goes in the second round.

I read that the weird defense West Virginia runs, the 3-3-5, held Irvin back. He always had his hand in the dirt, which he won't as a 3-4 outside linebacker.

His first forty was 4.5.
His second was 4.43. And he did that at 245 pounds. Some of his teammates claim he can do a sub 4.3 when he is lighter.

Bruce Irvin, West Virginia, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

His "destruction of property" charge came at a most inopportune time for him. The Patriots recently hosting him for a visit might not be a smokescreen. They may legitimately be thinking of him at #48.

A lot of mocks have us taking SS Harrison Smith. But the thinking that there's a big dropoff after him--which I think is false as Boise State's George Iloka's junior pro day (3/15) helped him when he went from a 4.62/4.66 Combine forty to a 4.49--might mean he's gone by then.

 

[State]

You can teach most edge-setters to rush the passer. Vrabel definitely learned how to, and even Ninkovich's pass rushing productivity is improving with time. You just can't teach a completely undersized pass rusher how to set the edge, though.

You've got a good point if Irvin can't keep his weight.

He admits he played lighter than he was at the Combine. But at the Combine he was the exact size of Von Miller--6'3", 245.

And no one thinks of VM as undersized. This Groupthink that Irvin is undersized is causing him to be undervalued, along with his very checkered past.

 

[State]

Here's a youtube video of Irvin in full beast mode during his more productive junior year. Apparently it's impressive--Shea McClellin can't do all this, that I can tell you--with 77K views.

Beast Mode (Bruce Irvin Junior Highlights) - YouTube

HT: Bruce Irvin & Patriots - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Check out the comments.

I like how one guy says NFL GMs can't afford to be haters. This guy's talent is first round, no question about it. There are other considerations, of course, like his drug-dealing past, but his athleticism is total Von Miller stud muffin package.

I can envision him chasing down Michael Vick. I'd have no problem taking him at 31.

 

[Sciz]

And no one thinks of VM as undersized.

Guess again

He's horribly undersized right now.

Of course, he also was listed at 237 during his senior season, I believe. Still, the Pats have different expectations from their OLBs than other teams. An OLB that's 245 works for the Steelers, Texans, or the Broncos (in their 4-3), but not for the Pats.

 

[ZoisKing]

He is a pretty articulate guy though. He majored in sociology.

?????

Have we been listening to the same guy? The interviews I listened to showcased a supreme lack of verbosity....I'd be worried that he'd be able to understand the playbook.

 

[ATippett56]

He is a pretty articulate guy though.

Huh?

He majored in sociology.

I thought he majored in drug dealing?

Bruce Irvin is more likely to end up like ex-Patriot Willie Andrews, constantly in trouble with the law.

 

[Seneschal2]

You can teach most edge-setters to rush the passer. Vrabel definitely learned how to, and even Ninkovich's pass rushing productivity is improving with time. You just can't teach a completely undersized pass rusher how to set the edge, though.

Similar thoughts.

Understanding the OP's intent, speed rushers are very enticing when one considers the obvious need. However, I clearly remember Belichick saying -- "Pass rush techniques can be taught."

With that in mind, I'd be more inclined to believe that BB won't change his philosophy, and will select a player who is solid vs the run first, yet has the necessary tools to develop as a pass rusher -- hence his quote. Finding balanced players who can employ his team defense seems to be his philosophy, once they've met his criteria such as -- size to play the position, coachability, smarts, intangibles.

 

[ay-yo]

Similar thoughts.

Understanding the OP's intent, speed rushers are very enticing when one considers the obvious need. However, I clearly remember Belichick saying -- "Pass rush techniques can be taught."

With that in mind, I'd be more inclined to believe that BB won't change his philosophy, and will select a player who is solid vs the run first, yet has the necessary tools to develop as a pass rusher -- hence his quote. Finding balanced players who can employ his team defense seems to be his philosophy, once they've met his criteria such as -- size to play the position, coachability, smarts, intangibles.

If pass rushing techniques can be taugh, and Irvin has never been coached in rushing the passer AND he still managed good production at WVU . . .

just imagine what he can do once we coach him up . 2nd round picks are such a crap shoot I don't have a problem swinging for the fences on Irvin.

 

[ZoisKing]

Can't say I don't love watching this guy's tape. I've watched all the top pass rushing talents video, and this guy's is the best. He's got closing speed that is unreal. He beats his man consistently.

Just don't listen to him interview

 

[SeymourTrophies]

Huh?

I thought he majored in drug dealing?

Bruce Irvin is more likely to end up like ex-Patriot Willie Andrews, constantly in trouble with the law.

I wouldn't necessarily ask him to speak at a commencement ceremony, but have you ever heard Courtney Upshaw or Jermaine Cunningham speak? In his combine interview, he is as well-spoken as you or I would be in front of mediots and scouts who are trying to rip you apart.

The destruction of property charge was on St Patty's when he smacked a sign off of the top of a car going down the street. Could you see Hernandez doing something like that? I'd be surprised if he hasn't.

 

[BlackFrancis]

The thought of Mike Vrabel as a superior edge setter that needed to be taught to rush the passer is hilarious. Keep it coming.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Can't say I don't love watching this guy's tape. I've watched all the top pass rushing talents video, and this guy's is the best. He's got closing speed that is unreal. He beats his man consistently.

Just don't listen to him interview

I don't think he's that bad. I think if you didn't know his past he would come across as a really likable guy. He might not be Shakespeare, but he's definitely no worse than Brandon Spikes.