Story on Patriots' documentary brings recent dysfunction to light

[Steve102]

You guys can't account for how holding high standards helps a team win. No one will ever know what would have happened all these years if Bill had lower standards. If players see others not living up to their responsibilities, then what happens over the span of time?

Do they 4? Do they beat the Eagles but lose to the Panthers and Seahawks? Is Butler even someone who becomes a household name if Browner wasn't on top of his Ps and Qs in practice when he blew up the pick? These are things that will never be known.

Players are different. They have much lower standards. They don't have the same responsibilities that coaches do. And apparently they forgive a lot. I mean, Brady took in Antonio Brown to live with his family, and this was after Brown had his thugs physically threaten the children of a woman he defrauded.

I am not suggesting Bill lower his standards, per se. I am saying the crime needs to fit the punishment. Welker's feet jokes didn't warrant a benching for however long it was. We will never know what Butler did, but it had to something egregious to warrant Bill throwing away a championship because of his standards.

His unbending ways won them 6 Lombardis. This is not up for debate. I am suggesting that, with the 20/20 benefit of hindsight, could they have won 7 or maybe 8? Not looking to go down the rabbit holes on either of these situations, because we already know there's no bottom to the hole. Could he have stepped away from 'himself' and saw how these decisions affected the other 53? Could he altered how he handled roster building, especially when it cam to Tom, at the end of Tom's time? Could he have bent himself and won more? Truthfully, I think the answer is an unequivocal NO. I don't think he was able to change because this. is. how. its. done. I don't think it's in his DNA to be able to change his methods. I don't think he can look in the mirror and make the self analysis needed to make that change at 68, 69, 70 and 71 years of age. As I have said previously, his methods worked, until they didn't. They stopped working when the players stopped carrying the message, or, specifically, when Brady stopped carrying it. Bill kept McCourty and Slate here to help with that, but for as great as they are, they aren't Thomas Brady.

 

[Guts]

I said this as a joke to my friend who is tired of Steve Wilks, but this would be a big step down for Bill. You can't go from "GOAT HC" to DC.

Yeah but maybe it keeps him busy. I honestly don't think he cares about that if he gets to coach. If he's really all about football.

 

[signbabybrady]

What does his “high standards” even mean? You can have high standards in terms of preparation, effort, etc… and still not be an *******.

And to say players have much “lower standards” is BS. Sure, some do, but did Brady? The guy basically dedicated everything to maintaining his body, film study, being prepared, etc… let’s not act like he had “lower standards”. Guys like Gronk and Edelman who spent more time in the operating room then anyone ever should. Did they have “lower standards”?

I think he just means Bills way. Sure some of it might have been pointless and frustrating but most of it had a direct and positive impact on the way the team responded in critical moments. Maybe he could have been more player friendly and no impact would be seen or maybe it impacts the teams mental make up and one of those 6 winning teams doesn't have what it needs. We have no way of knowing what could have been but we do know Bill's way wether the players liked it or not allowed them to accomplish more than anyone else has.

 

[patfanken]

Sorry about not reading the previous 8 pages, but MY first reaction on seeing the Brady quote about knowing he wasn't going to sign another contract with the Pats after the 2019 season was "Finally, I'm vinficated".

I have said from day ONE was the crap about Brady being "pushed out" was media BS. The 20 year run had run its course. The Pats had pushed ALL their chips in for one last shot at a title in 2019. They were entering the 2020 season with ZERO cap space and an old over the hill roster.

Brady is above ALL else, a fierce competitor., There was zero chance that the Pats were going to contend in 2020 even if they had given Brady all the money in Bob's bank account. They had a one million dollar QB and zero Cap space. How were they going to pay Brady $25+MM/yr.

Brady was NEVER, EVER going to be back with the Pats after they ran out of gas in 2019. IIRC his house went on the market BEFORE the season even ended.

I DO believe that Brady (after 20 years) did get tired of Bill's voice in his ear. But that was the least of big reasons Brady left. He left because it was CLEARLY in his own best interests of his very limited career time. Brady was NEVER going to be part of a rebuild. FINALLY 4 years after the fact the truth came to light. Brady LEFT, he was never forced out

 

[upstater1]

I am not suggesting Bill lower his standards, per se. I am saying the crime needs to fit the punishment. Welker's feet jokes didn't warrant a benching for however long it was. We will never know what Butler did, but it had to something egregious to warrant Bill throwing away a championship because of his standards.

His unbending ways won them 6 Lombardis. This is not up for debate. I am suggesting that, with the 20/20 benefit of hindsight, could they have won 7 or maybe 8? Not looking to go down the rabbit holes on either of these situations, because we already know there's no bottom to the hole. Could he have stepped away from 'himself' and saw how these decisions affected the other 53? Could he altered how he handled roster building, especially when it cam to Tom, at the end of Tom's time? Could he have bent himself and won more? Truthfully, I think the answer is an unequivocal NO. I don't think he was able to change because this. is. how. its. done. I don't think it's in his DNA to be able to change his methods. I don't think he can look in the mirror and make the self analysis needed to make that change at 68, 69, 70 and 71 years of age. As I have said previously, his methods worked, until they didn't. They stopped working when the players stopped carrying the message, or, specifically, when Brady stopped carrying it. Bill kept McCourty and Slate here to help with that, but for as great as they are, they aren't Thomas Brady.

Agree on Welker. I've stated that here many times.

I'm just saying that it's impossible to account for these things, and that there are alternate ways of thinking about them. I'm not even arguing that Butler's benching didn't cost them the Super Bowl.

 

[upstater1]

Sorry about not reading the previous 8 pages, but MY first reaction on seeing the Brady quote about knowing he wasn't going to sign another contract with the Pats after the 2019 season was "Finally, I'm vinficated".

I have said from day ONE was the crap about Brady being "pushed out" was media BS. The 20 year run had run its course. The Pats had pushed ALL their chips in for one last shot at a title in 2019. They were entering the 2020 season with ZERO cap space and an old over the hill roster.

Brady is above ALL else, a fierce competitor., There was zero chance that the Pats were going to contend in 2020 even if they had given Brady all the money in Bob's bank account. They had a one million dollar QB and zero Cap space. How were they going to pay Brady $25+MM/yr.

Brady was NEVER, EVER going to be back with the Pats after they ran out of gas in 2019. IIRC his house went on the market BEFORE the season even ended.

I DO believe that Brady (after 20 years) did get tired of Bill's voice in his ear. But that was the least of big reasons Brady left. He left because it was CLEARLY in his own best interests of his very limited career time. Brady was NEVER going to be part of a rebuild. FINALLY 4 years after the fact the truth came to light. Brady LEFT, he was never forced out

Thank you, I agree. And almost everyone agreed at the time that the run was over.
All this drama over keeping him when it was clear it was the best move for Brady (and for Belichick in starting the rebuild) to move on at that point.

 

[Steve102]

Agree on Welker. I've stated that here many times.

I'm just saying that it's impossible to account for these things, and that there are alternate ways of thinking about them. I'm not even arguing that Butler's benching didn't cost them the Super Bowl.

I know it's impossible, but now that it's over and the stories come out, we can speculate.

What the hell else are we going to do? It's Feb. 15th.

 

[upstater1]

I know it's impossible, but now that it's over and the stories come out, we can speculate.

What the hell else are we going to do? It's Feb. 15th.

Well, most people posting about the Butler benching seem absolutely certain that Belichick's strict ways held Brady back from winning more SBs. When you look across the NFL and see teams constantly squabbling and imploding and the lowering of standards, it's usually those same teams that struggle to win it all. The Raiders and Steelers are examples. Jack Jones is going to be held to a lower standard in Las Vegas. But his entire team is going to notice. Pittsburgh has perennial problem children, from AB to Leveon Bell to JuJu to Dionate Johnson and now George Pickens. It never ends. It's a culture of selfishness. I really have no idea if it hurts them or not, I only know that Ben R. would much rather play with a Hines Ward than with any of these guys.

 

[Boomer B]

Sorry about not reading the previous 8 pages, but MY first reaction on seeing the Brady quote about knowing he wasn't going to sign another contract with the Pats after the 2019 season was "Finally, I'm vinficated".

I have said from day ONE was the crap about Brady being "pushed out" was media BS. The 20 year run had run its course. The Pats had pushed ALL their chips in for one last shot at a title in 2019. They were entering the 2020 season with ZERO cap space and an old over the hill roster.

Brady is above ALL else, a fierce competitor., There was zero chance that the Pats were going to contend in 2020 even if they had given Brady all the money in Bob's bank account. They had a one million dollar QB and zero Cap space. How were they going to pay Brady $25+MM/yr.

Brady was NEVER, EVER going to be back with the Pats after they ran out of gas in 2019. IIRC his house went on the market BEFORE the season even ended.

I DO believe that Brady (after 20 years) did get tired of Bill's voice in his ear. But that was the least of big reasons Brady left. He left because it was CLEARLY in his own best interests of his very limited career time. Brady was NEVER going to be part of a rebuild. FINALLY 4 years after the fact the truth came to light. Brady LEFT, he was never forced out

The reasons he wasn’t going to come back seem to be indicated differently then what you list though. You point out the teams talent level, chance to succeed, etc…while the article points to a lot of unhappiness in the workplace and the way he was treated.

This comes right after Brady’s quote:

“It was brutal,” Matthew Slater said. Rob Gronkowski described pulling up to 1 Patriot Place and not wanting to get out of his car to go into work. Wes Welker compared Brady to an abused dog for continually going back to work for Belichick.”

No where in that article does it mention Tom leaving because of a rebuild, talent level, etc…

 

[Steve102]

The reasons he wasn’t going to come back seem to be indicated differently then what you list though. You point out the teams talent level, chance to succeed, etc…while the article points to a lot of unhappiness in the workplace and the way he was treated.

This comes right after Brady’s quote:

“It was brutal,” Matthew Slater said. Rob Gronkowski described pulling up to 1 Patriot Place and not wanting to get out of his car to go into work. Wes Welker compared Brady to an abused dog for continually going back to work for Belichick.”

No where in that article does it mention Tom leaving because of a rebuild, talent level, etc…

There's this little tidbit from Holley. He's of the opinion that if Bill paid Brady, he would have signed up. I would certainly give Holley's opinion some level of credence. Certainly worthy of consideration. He had very good access, maybe better than anyone.

 

[Steve102]

Well, most people posting about the Butler benching seem absolutely certain that Belichick's strict ways held Brady back from winning more SBs. When you look across the NFL and see teams constantly squabbling and imploding and the lowering of standards, it's usually those same teams that struggle to win it all. The Raiders and Steelers are examples. Jack Jones is going to be held to a lower standard in Las Vegas. But his entire team is going to notice. Pittsburgh has perennial problem children, from AB to Leveon Bell to JuJu to Dionate Johnson and now George Pickens. It never ends. It's a culture of selfishness. I really have no idea if it hurts them or not, I only know that Ben R. would much rather play with a Hines Ward than with any of these guys.

I am not saying that he should have lowered his standards. I am speculating that if he had the ability to pivot... which I don't believe he could... then I think there's a possibility that things might have been even better than the historic greatness we were able to enjoy.

No one did what they did. I am saying that two or three decisions went a one way, and maybe if Bill did something different, then maybe we are sitting here on a pile of trophies unlike anyone else. Maybe Butler makes a play. Maybe they don't fold vs. the Jete when Wes is benched.

There's lots of what if's to be looked at now. Really, until the draft and FA starts, that's all we have.

 

[tasmlab]

If it was the year 2000 and you told me everything that was going to happen with the Patriots until 2024, including all the bad stuff, Brady leaving because he had enough, BB getting fired because he couldn't change and his old approach wore out, exactly as it happened, I'd excitedly sign up for it all again.

 

[lancerman]

Sorry about not reading the previous 8 pages, but MY first reaction on seeing the Brady quote about knowing he wasn't going to sign another contract with the Pats after the 2019 season was "Finally, I'm vinficated".

I have said from day ONE was the crap about Brady being "pushed out" was media BS. The 20 year run had run its course. The Pats had pushed ALL their chips in for one last shot at a title in 2019. They were entering the 2020 season with ZERO cap space and an old over the hill roster.

Brady is above ALL else, a fierce competitor., There was zero chance that the Pats were going to contend in 2020 even if they had given Brady all the money in Bob's bank account. They had a one million dollar QB and zero Cap space. How were they going to pay Brady $25+MM/yr.

Brady was NEVER, EVER going to be back with the Pats after they ran out of gas in 2019. IIRC his house went on the market BEFORE the season even ended.

I DO believe that Brady (after 20 years) did get tired of Bill's voice in his ear. But that was the least of big reasons Brady left. He left because it was CLEARLY in his own best interests of his very limited career time. Brady was NEVER going to be part of a rebuild. FINALLY 4 years after the fact the truth came to light. Brady LEFT, he was never forced out

That's not really what it sounds like. Most of these quotes sound like Brady left because of treatment by Bill, not talent on the team. Which is effectively that Bill's treatment pushed him out. It doesn't sound like it had anything to do with how competitive the team was. And you have other players backing it up that the problem was Bill

 

[0818NePa]

So your basically risking the SB53 victory on the hopes that whoever we turned it over to could still win 53 and that they would be able to retain Brady and win again. Based on how good Tom is this is not improbable but it is still a leap. Oh and at that time Josh was basically written as the heir like Mayo now so be sure to take that into account.

Im not risking anything, since in 2017 I did not still won SB n. 6. Im in 2017 and that is what I would have done.

 

[0818NePa]

I know what DID happen.

They won the Super Bowl.

You can't trade that for anything. Sorry.

They also held the top 11 offense in NFL history to 3 points. That doesn't happen without Bill. No way.

If you think it would've happened, you're delusional.

Are we talking about the same guy who run the D the year before and let Phi score 41 ? Are we talking about TB throwing in 2018 and beyond to Deebo or Aj Brown (or, why not, maybe both) ?

 

[Boomer B]

There's this little tidbit from Holley. He's of the opinion that if Bill paid Brady, he would have signed up. I would certainly give Holley's opinion some level of credence. Certainly worthy of consideration. He had very good access, maybe better than anyone.

I agree. Zo said the same. I think a lot of the disrespect he felt stemmed from Bill not giving him that 2nd year.

 

[Hyped]

That's not really what it sounds like. Most of these quotes sound like Brady left because of treatment by Bill, not talent on the team. Which is effectively that Bill's treatment pushed him out. It doesn't sound like it had anything to do with how competitive the team was. And you have other players backing it up that the problem was Bill

Disagree. Yeah, it was HARD to come into Foxborough to work day in and day out. But a lot of that was masked by winning on Sundays...which we did OK until the end of the 2019 season.

Remember Brady saying that he was "the most miserable 8-0 QB in league history"? That season was filled with us trying to give Brady weapons from Josh Gordon-->AB-->Snau after Gronk retired....and Brady being frustrated with N'Keal Harry and etc...

I mean, we had no cap money in 2020...could have cut guys to offer Brady 25M....maybe, but the team would have been far worse. Also, the mistake was actually in not offering Brady a 2 year 50M deal in 2018...which led to him asking for the promise of not being franchised in 2020 at the end of his deal.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the grass was a lot greener down in Tampa... (or San Francisco where Brady wanted to go initially). I mean...Evans, Godwin, that defense, and etc...compared to what? Meyers, N'Keal Harry, and some cast offs....we paid Cam Newton 1M to play QB here....1M! Geno Smith is gonna make 20M this year man....a NFL QB doesn't carry a clipboard for 1M or less....

 

[Steve102]

I agree. Zo said the same. I think a lot of the disrespect he felt stemmed from Bill not giving him that 2nd year.

Sure. A lot of hurt feelings go away if Bill says "Yeah, you're Tom eff'n Brady. Here's 2x50", to Holley's point.

 

[RobertWeathers]

New Patriots documentary reveals how bad it got between Brady, Belichick: ‘It was brutal’

A review of "The Dynasty," a documentary on the Patriots from 2000 to 2020 by Apple TV+ that kicks off with two episodes Friday.

theathletic.com

Wow. Even Slater talks about how bad things were in the last decade or so, with attribution that the high authoritarian leadership style of the head coach as the primary cause.

(If you don't subscribe to NYT or The Athletic, open in Firefox and use the read function.)

 

[Guts]

Sure. A lot of hurt feelings go away if Bill says "Yeah, you're Tom eff'n Brady. Here's 2x50", to Holley's point.

Maybe just a "good job, son" would've done it lol