Story on Patriots' documentary brings recent dysfunction to light

[signbabybrady]

Game winning drives is an offense stat. It wasn't just Tom who was prepared for it, his entire line and all his weapons were also. And you thinking coaching played no part in that... smart.

Tom's leadership became invaluable in time, he wasn't providing much of that in 2001. You act like what Tom did, what he did in crunch time and elsewhere, he did that in a vacuum and learned it on his own... all alone.

It took the entire team playing clutch to come back from 28-3, the defense and special teams included. Stop insulting every other player on that field just you can sling some mud at the bad guy who put it all together. Laughable...

Tom's the greatest QB in history, if it were entirely based on his magical powers... he'd have closer to 23 rings than 7.

It's a team sport, 11 on 11. Putting it all on one guy is blind hero worship.

I agree with most of this but he was bringing tons of leadership right from the jump. He did it more as one of the boys back then rather than the alpha in the room. But teammates followed him and believed in him pretty much right away.

 

[Wozzy]

I agree with most of this but he was bringing tons of leadership right from the jump. He did it more as one of the boys back then rather than the alpha in the room. But teammates followed him and believed in him pretty much right away.

Dude, I had a conversation with Ty Law and Milloy at a bar in Miami right before BB traded Milloy to the Bills in 2002. They were goofing on him, not in a mean way, but in a family way. They liked the kid a lot, but he was a rookie to them. These were all vet players around 2001, grown men and McGinest was the team leader. Give me a break.

Tom shut his mouth and did his job well enough for a second year player and first time starter, but he threw one TD (and INT) in the entire postseason. This attempt to mythologize his arrival in the NFL as some QB clinic and offensive explosion like Michael Jordan is laughably misguided and not borne out by the statistics. BB wasn't lying when he said Tom became Tom in 2003... that was year four.

 

[signbabybrady]

Dude, I had a conversation with Ty Law and Milloy at a bar in Miami right before BB traded Milloy to the Bills in 2002. They were goofing on him, not in a mean way, but in a family way. They liked the kid a lot, but he was a rookie to them. These were all vet players around 2001, grown men and McGinest was the team leader. Give me a break.

Tom shut his mouth and did his job well enough for a second year player and first time starter, but he threw one TD in the entire postseason. This attempt to mythologize his arrival in the NFL as some QB clinic and offensive explosion like Michael Jordan is laughably misguided and not borne out by the statistics. BB wasn't lying when he said Tom became Tom in 2003... that was year four.

He ran in a TD too. And had multiple clutch game tieing and winning drives. And he missed most of game to injury.

And yes Willie and Cox and others were the vocal leaders but there are plenty of other ways to be a leader back then it was in part just being the beer chugging kid who everyone wanted to follow and do a little extra for because they saw the way he seamlessly stepped in for Drew.

 

[Wozzy]

He ran in a TD too. And had multiple clutch game tieing and winning drives. And he missed most of game to injury.

And yes Willie and Cox and others were the vocal leaders but there are plenty of other ways to be a leader back then it was in part just being the beer chugging kid who everyone wanted to follow and do a little extra for because they saw the way he seamlessly stepped in for Drew.

He was clutch, took what the defense gave him and protected the football in the postseason.

If you prepare and play well, you lead by example by default, he certainly did that in 2001.

But none of those old vets were coming to Tom for life advice at 24 years old.

Outside of Brady and Seymour, that 2001 roster was really old.

 

[XLIX]

Just spouting a maxim doesn't make it true.

Provide an example of me lying... otherwise pipe down, the adults are talking.

3rd post down on this page: Free Agent QB Baker Mayfield

You wrote the following, which quotes me twice of things I absolutely never said:

“Tom Brady has magic powers that makes all things possible and is the entire reason for the rings, team doesn’t matter much in relation to QB magic.” - XLIX

“Tom passed for 505 yards, 3 TD’s in the 2017 Super Bowl and lost to Nick Foles”. - Wozzy

“It was his team’s fault” - XLIX

I never said those things. So, to quote you: "When you literally have to lie about what I said... you have nothing to stand on."

Now STFU liar. The adults are talking.

 

[venecol]

This ^ is just a nonsense graphic, a one game snapshot is not relevant in relation to points allowed in the regular season and especially the playoffs. Over time the league has also become more of a passing league, a higher scoring league because of little yellow flags... and you're saying the modern teams let up the most points per game... again, smart.

Uhh, that's not for 1 game, it's for the entire playoffs during each SB. It shows that out of all 58 SB playoff runs, Tom played with defenses (PPG), in the bottom 25%, for 5 of his 7 winning SBs. The Pats D highest rank is #32 ('01 SB) out of 58. That's below average.

The '07 Giants and '17 Eagles defenses had better playoff runs (PPG) than all Patriots winning SB teams other than the '01 team.

The rest of your post is nonsense. You don't want to talk about Brady's production during the regular season. He's got all-time top offensive efficiency numbers in multiple seasons. Brady has the longest and highest peak of any QB in NFL history. How many offensive all pros played with Brady? HOFers? Tom is the greatest player in NFL history.

 

[Wozzy]

3rd post down on this page: Free Agent QB Baker Mayfield

You wrote the following, which quotes me twice of things I absolutely never said:

I never said those things. So, to quote you: "When you literally have to lie about what I said... you have nothing to stand on."

Now STFU liar. The adults are talking.

My mocking your indefensible take is not "lying," you simply couldn't defend the indefensible... so it bothered you.

You guys make these declarative statements about Tom Brady having magic powers, then I point out his most dominant performance in a Super Bowl happens to be a loss and all you can do at that point is stew... because blaming his team after you just told us his team had little to no involvement makes you look stupid.

Either Tom is entirely responsible for winning or he's not... you guys want to have it both ways. You talk out both sides of your mouth. You've lost the debate, but can't acknowledge it.... so "I never said that" is your only response before slinking off.... only to revive this dumb conversation days or months later, like now.

Like I've said a thousand times, Tom Brady was responsible for everything, unless the team loses... then it's his team's fault.

 

[Wozzy]

Uhh, that's not for 1 game, it's for the entire playoffs during each SB. It shows that out of all 58 SB playoff runs, Tom played with defenses (PPG), in the bottom 25%, for 5 of his 7 winning SBs. The Pats D highest rank is #32 ('01 SB) out of 58. That's below average.

The '07 Giants and '17 Eagles defenses had better playoff runs (PPG) than all Patriots winning SB teams other than the '01 team.

The rest of your post is nonsense. You don't want to talk about Brady's production during the regular season. He's got all-time top offensive efficiency numbers in multiple seasons. Brady has the longest and highest peak of any QB in NFL history. How many offensive all pros played with Brady? HOFers? Tom is the greatest player in NFL history.

None of which changes how all Tom's defenses that won Super Bowls were top ranked defenses.

Again... provide us with some examples of amazing QB's dragging a terrible defense to a Super Bowl and winning it and this conversation will be over... you win.

Should be easy, if QB magic exists.

You can't, because it has never happened.

 

[XLIX]

My mocking your indefensible take is not "lying," you simply couldn't defend the indefensible... so it bothered you.

STFU liar. The adults are talking. The only thing worse than a liar is someone who gets caught lying and then just doubles down.

"When you literally have to lie about what I said... you have nothing to stand on." - Wozzy

 

[Wozzy]

STFU liar. The adults are talking. The only thing worse than a liar is someone who gets caught lying and then just doubles down.

"When you literally have to lie about what I said... you have nothing to stand on." - Wozzy

You have yet to provide an example of me lying... only me clearly making fun of your BS takes.

 

[BTTA]

You two need to get a room.
But in general, I agree with Wozzy. Brady as a QB and leader in those first two years are greatly exaggerated in Pats fans lore. He did exactly as he should have, quietly learned, didn't make many mistakes, and fulfilled the basics of his role. He didn't cave under pressure. All of that allowed him to remain in the leadership role so he could emerge when his natural maturation curve was at the right place.

He wasn't some kind of magical presence right out of the gate. That's the kind of thing we 'Mericans love to believe in but just doesn't happen in real life.

 

[RDS11]

But the thing is....Brady was a magical presence from the very start. Might not be as good in 2001 as he would later become, but from the team record standpoint to his own stats, he was already near the top of the NFL. His impact on the team was immediate.

The Pats were 5-13 under Belichick prior to his first start, 0-2 in 2001, and went 14-3 the rest of the season.
Brady had the 6th highest QB rating in 2001 & 5 game winning drives (including one in the Super Bowl). The Pats were 6th in points scored in 2001, they were 25th the year before. Who, in 2001, could have done better than Brady with this offense ? Would you rather have had Manning and his 23 picks in 2001, or Warner and his 22 picks instead ?

Anyone who takes a 1-year sample, 2002, over a 23-year career to make a point is disingenuous at best. Even then, Brady led the league in TDs, and the Pats were a tiebraker away from winning the division.

For Pats fans who have witnessed this entire period, from the Carroll years through now, I find it hard to understand why anyone would undervalue the value of Brady to the 6 Championships. These are usually things we see from Pats haters...and most of them coming from the fact that Brady was a 6th round pick, thus not a premium pick player, and expecting that at some point he would turn back into a pumpkin.

And worst of all, the biggest offender on this forum is the one who constantly states that football is a team sport and the impact of QBs are overvalued...and yet laid all the issues the Pats had in 2023 at the feet of 1 player, the QB. Which pretty much shows what everybody else know : you can't win without a great QB. And great QBs are few and far between. Someone will again put up the Trent Dilfers and Brad Johnsons, but take a look at their team stats : these were among the greatest defenses of all time (Dilfer's Ravens even went 4 games without scoring a TD), these are historical abnormalities, not a trend.

 

[203Pat]

Nothing is dumber than using stats to discuss what Brady was or wasn't in 2001 compared to what he became. The passing game exploded from when Brady entered the league to when he left.

In 2001 only 2 quarterbacks threw for over 4,000 yards. In 2021 it was 10 quarterbacks.
In 2001 only 10 quarterbacks threw for 20 or more touchdowns. In 2021 it was 19 quarterbacks.
In 2001only 5 quarterbacks had a passer rating of 90 or above. In 2021 it was 19 quarterbacks.

So all the stats citing to claim Brady was just along for the ride in the early 2000's is nonsense. Even the stats don't back it up in his first few years as a starter he was in, or close to, top 5 in all meaningful passing categories. Then when Bill decided to go on the F You tour in 2007 and actually invest in the offense we all saw what Brady could do.

 

[sb1]

None of which changes how all Tom's defenses that won Super Bowls were top ranked defenses.

2001- 6th in scoring but also 24th in passing, 19th in rushing, 15th in 3rd down defense all against a last place schedule
2014 - 8th in scoring but 17th in passing, 21st in plays per drive, just 16th on 3rd down
2018 - 21st in yards allowed, 22nd in passing, 29th in rush yards per attempt and just league average on 3rd down and RZ defense

And he didn't win the Super Bowl that year but 2011 is worth mentioning because they won the conference.
2011 - 15th in scoring defense, second worst in the league in passing yards allowed, 24th in rush YPA allowed, bottom 5 in the league in 3rd down defense, 21st in the red zone.

I'd say that's a bit short of "all"....

 

[XLIX]

You have yet to provide an example of me lying... only me clearly making fun of your BS takes.

STFU liar. The adults are talking. The only thing worse than a liar is someone who gets caught lying and then just doubles down.

 

[XLIX]

He wasn't some kind of magical presence right out of the gate. That's the kind of thing we 'Mericans love to believe in but just doesn't happen in real life.

Yeah! A team going from 5-13 to 14-3 under a new QB never happens in real life!!

 

[BTTA]

Yeah! A team going from 5-13 to 14-3 under a new QB never happens in real life!!

You are confusing causality with correlation, to fit a decision you've already made.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Amazing how this argument will never go away. The 2001 team wasn't going anywhere without a stable QB and the QB wouldn't have been able to succeed without the coaching, defense allowing them to hang around games and easy schedule. They needed each other. Richard Seymour was the most important player on their defense. They only played against 6 teams .500 and above going 3-3. In those games, they gave up 30+ points twice and at least 20 points in two more of those matchups. The average score in those games were Pats 14.5 to the opponents 20.6.

They were a Cinderella team benefitting from a last place schedule. Even Ernie Adams in the documentary couldn't believe the miracle when it snowed the day of the divisional round against the Raiders. They would've ran the Pats off the field in clear conditions and put an end to their feel good story. The D wasn't that good and Brady wasn't able to contend in shootouts or major deficits. They needed a lot to go their way to win that Super Bowl in 2001.

 

[XLIX]

You are confusing causality with correlation, to fit a decision you've already made.

Anyone that doesn't see any causality in the following:

The greatest QB of all time takes over the Patriots offense ===> Patriots go from losing team to winning team

is a complete and utter moron.

 

[Biffins]

This is why Patriots won so much with Brady.

View attachment 57138

What a chart!!!!