Patriots new OC - Alex Van Pelt

signbabybrady said:

Didn't the Rams do that....I guess they built a pretty solid team first then traded everything off for Vets to put them over the top. One of the few strategies that have worked other than having Brady or Mahomes.

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You can say that without researching. But even the Rams didn't go anywhere far until they had Kurt Warner.

And then in recent times they again failed to do great until they drafted Jared Goff.

Now look at the rise of the Lions, it coincided with them trading for Jared Goff.

So again in the end - you gotta get the elite QB if you want to get far in the playoffs and really compete in the NFL. That's the inescapable reality.

You can have as many pro bowlers as you want, if you don't have it in that one critical position of QB you're not going to field a top team.

rochrist said:

Mahomes was 10th. Allen was 7th. Watson was 12th. Jackson was 32d! Pickett was 20th. (and is awful) Only 4 off that list were even in the top five.

You know who WERE in the top five. Zach Wilson and Trey Lance. Jameis Winston. Marcus Mariota. MItch Trubisky. Blake Bortles. Sam Darnold.

Picking a QB in the top five just because is not a guarantee of success.

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There's no guarantee in the draft, period.

You've just got to do your homework and scouting really well then pick the best players you can.

That doesn't mean that you don't take your shot. Because you miss 100% of the time that you don't.

What's the fear? If you don't attempt to address the most impactful positions with your early draft picks first, you're getting less value for your pick.

That would be like BB drafting a freaking guard in the 1st round because he's afraid he's going to mess up picking a more impactful position. Maybe it was fear, and that explains all the poor recent drafts. He just got gun-shy and ended up picking JAGs because he was afraid to go for the talented players in the pool. If that was the case that kind of thinking has to stop in Foxboro.

Mayo needs to be bold and just go get what he needs to rebuild this team. He's brand new to this head coaching thing so there's a chance he could make some bad picks but hopefully he has some good advice and makes some good judgment calls in the end. We'll just have to wait and see.

VJCPatriot said:

Mayo needs to be bold and just go get what he needs to rebuild this team. He's brand new to this head coaching thing so there's a chance he could make some bad picks but hopefully he has some good advice and makes some good judgment calls in the end. We'll just have to wait and see.

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What I think people need to realize is it probably won't be Mayo making the pick, that is generally the GM/Front Office's job. I'm sure coaching will have input, but I think we are heading towards a more segregated Personnel / Coaching breakdown. There will be cross talk, but they have different jobs.

SEPatsFan said:

What I think people need to realize is it probably won't be Mayo making the pick, that is generally the GM/Front Office's job. I'm sure coaching will have input, but I think we are heading towards a more segregated Personnel / Coaching breakdown. There will be cross talk, but they have different jobs.

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I expect it’ll be similar to most of the successful teams, where the GM and HC are effectively joined at the hip, and are able to push back on each other, but it’s ultimately the GM’s call and the GM likely won’t go for a player if the coach is dead set against it. The Petey/Grier silo concept hopefully won’t be coming through. So Mayo will have a major say on who’s coming in - that if Mayo doesn’t like guy, Wolf won’t be drafting him. Now in theory that’s what was happening with BB and Groh/Caserio too, with BB having the final say but wanting the other guys to be on board. But the difference is I expect Mayo would defer to the evaluators a ton more overall, whereas Belichick would be an evaluator himself.

SEPatsFan said:

What I think people need to realize is it probably won't be Mayo making the pick, that is generally the GM/Front Office's job. I'm sure coaching will have input, but I think we are heading towards a more segregated Personnel / Coaching breakdown. There will be cross talk, but they have different jobs.

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Maybe that's the case. But we haven't heard any clear breakdown of the personnel responsibilities or an announcement of a change in said responsibilities. Which is why hiring a GM and establishing a more clear pecking order for decision making would have been helpful. So until then I'm just going off the original structure where the head coach had the final say until we're informed otherwise by the Patriots.

Stu Pidassle said:

Because you keep replying to my posts. It has already been discussed by you, over and over again which is how I fell into this rat hole to begin with. You can't handle the fact that there are other opinions. I guess I shouldn't be so black and white given all the research that you have done to support your position, LOL

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You have quoted my posts multiple times today, so I’m responding to them. Don’t like it? Then put me on ignore, it won’t hurt my feelings,

Stu Pidassle said:

Because you keep replying to my posts. It has already been discussed by you, over and over again which is how I fell into this rat hole to begin with. You can't handle the fact that there are other opinions. I guess I shouldn't be so black and white given all the research that you have done to support your position, LOL

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I can completely handle other opinions, that’s why I respond with mine. But I’ll make it easy for you and just put you on ignore, that way I won’t upset you. Adios.

Hammer of Thor said:

I expect it’ll be similar to most of the successful teams, where the GM and HC are effectively joined at the hip, and are able to push back on each other, but it’s ultimately the GM’s call and the GM likely won’t go for a player if the coach is dead set against it. The Petey/Grier silo concept hopefully won’t be coming through. So Mayo will have a major say on who’s coming in - that if Mayo doesn’t like guy, Wolf won’t be drafting him. Now in theory that’s what was happening with BB and Groh/Caserio too, with BB having the final say but wanting the other guys to be on board. But the difference is I expect Mayo would defer to the evaluators a ton more overall, whereas Belichick would be an evaluator himself.

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Bob Kraft did say he wanted more "checks and balances" which is an indicator that he felt things under Bill weren't working out and probably played a big role in moving on. But the team hasn't officially hired a new GM yet. Maybe behind the scenes they are trying out Wolf or Groh in that capacity in a "trial run" and won't make any official decisions until they see how it turns out after year 1.

It's hard to say. I would have preferred they had gone with a more proven personnel guy and hired a GM. But there would have been a big fundamental shift in power once you get a GM and maybe Kraft wasn't ready to shift things that much yet.

I am concerned that we haven't at least made moves to overhauled the scouting department. BB liked to keep things small during his tenure, but there's a ton of talent out there, and if you're not looking under every rock, you're not getting the best data you can before making your draft decisions, which to me is less than ideal and was a big reason why our drafts ended up being mediocre to poor over recent years.

I think we need to pay close attention to pre draft contact the patriots have with quarterbacks. Someone here usually does a thread on it.

VJCPatriot said:

There's no guarantee in the draft, period.

You've just got to do your homework and scouting really well then pick the best players you can.

That doesn't mean that you don't take your shot. Because you miss 100% of the time that you don't.

What's the fear? If you don't attempt to address the most impactful positions with your early draft picks first, you're getting less value for your pick.

That would be like BB drafting a freaking guard in the 1st round because he's afraid he's going to mess up picking a more impactful position. Maybe it was fear, and that explains all the poor recent drafts. He just got gun-shy and ended up picking JAGs because he was afraid to go for the talented players in the pool. If that was the case that kind of thinking has to stop in Foxboro.

Mayo needs to be bold and just go get what he needs to rebuild this team. He's brand new to this head coaching thing so there's a chance he could make some bad picks but hopefully he has some good advice and makes some good judgment calls in the end. We'll just have to wait and see.

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The fear is you blow the chance to pick a player who is likely to be a mainstay for a decade or more on a bust like Zach Wilson. The only one of the top three I see as close to sure thing is Williams, and even he has questions about his mental makeup. Daniels just looks to me like a guy who made a ton of plays through the air in college and will be misses or turnovers in the NFL, and ton more plays with his feet, which as his size will get him killed in the NFL.

Fields is very similar to Watson minus the massages.

rochrist said:

The fear is you blow the chance to pick a player who is likely to be a mainstay for a decade or more on a bust like Zach Wilson. The only one of the top three I see as close to sure thing is Williams, and even he has questions about his mental makeup. Daniels just looks to me like a guy who made a ton of plays through the air in college and will be misses or turnovers in the NFL, and ton more plays with his feet, which as his size will get him killed in the NFL.

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mh at 3 McCarthy or Nix at 34 or Fields with a trade.
Anything else would be uncivilized.
This is so easy a caveman could do it.

Hammer of Thor said:

I expect it’ll be similar to most of the successful teams, where the GM and HC are effectively joined at the hip, and are able to push back on each other, but it’s ultimately the GM’s call and the GM likely won’t go for a player if the coach is dead set against it. The Petey/Grier silo concept hopefully won’t be coming through. So Mayo will have a major say on who’s coming in - that if Mayo doesn’t like guy, Wolf won’t be drafting him. Now in theory that’s what was happening with BB and Groh/Caserio too, with BB having the final say but wanting the other guys to be on board. But the difference is I expect Mayo would defer to the evaluators a ton more overall, whereas Belichick would be an evaluator himself.

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Yes that’s definitely the ideal situation, but unfortunately we don’t really know how Mayo is at evaluating talent.

I have zero confidence that a career defensive player / coach will have ANY idea what to actually look for in a QB.

I expect his draft and offense to be almost historically bad but I am obviously hoping for the best. I’m just bracing for a really ugly next season.

Love Mayo as a player, seems like a fantastic human. But this was a rushed decision and we really don’t have a lot to go on with Kraft’s history.

He ran Parcells out, picked Carroll who did okay, and then Belichick who got pretty lucky himself by finding Brady.

(Not bashing BB. But we have no clue how he’d be without Brady. I used to think he could develop most young QB until I saw Mac)

upstater1 said:

How was that a rebuild? We had most of the guys from 2019 on that team and they were all in their 30s?

We have 2 players from 2019 now (Andrews and Wise) and Wise didn't even play back then.

Since Mac Jones was drafted, over 50+ players on our regular roster joined the team.

Our FAs are now pretty old (Hunter Henry, Gesicki, Pharoah, Parker, JuJu, Bourne, Trent Brown, Reiff, Anderson, McDermott, Judon, Godchaux, Ezekiel) but otherwise, most of all our other players are young.

The only exceptions to this are Wise, Andrews and Jon Jones.

It's a young team.

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They tried to rebuild in 2021 but failed. I believe it was 165 million guaranteed money spent on free agents, 137 million guaranteed in the first two days.

venecol said:

More ****ing ******** from this guy. Patriots were top 3 oldest team in '23.

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It's a pretty dumb stat as the Pats are ranked near the bottom with an average age of 26 years old. The first ranked team are the Packers with an average age of 25 years old. Just one year drops you near the bottom. I'd like to know how many 30+ year olds the Pats have and where they rank. The Saints lead the league in 30+ year olds.

TheRainMaker said:

It's a pretty dumb stat as the Pats are ranked near the bottom with an average age of 26 years old. The first ranked team is the Packers with an average age of 25 years old. Just one year drops you near the bottom. I'd like to know how many 30+ year olds the Pats have and where they rank. The Saints lead the league in 30+ year olds.

Ranking NFL teams by age after 53-man cutdowns: 2023 edition

Where do the Eagles rank in age among the 32 NFL teams?

www.phillyvoice.com

I Crunched The Average Ages Of Every NFL Team To Put Together This "Official Longevity Disposition - Football Age Report Tracker" (OLD-FART)

Rich Schultz. Getty Images.Welcome to the OLD-FART. A blog crunching the numbers on NFL team/player ages with an acronym I clearly started with first before figuring out what words make arguable sens...

www.barstoolsports.com

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I agree it's a dumb stat but that dude keeps saying Pats are one of the youngest and that's BS. He just likes to make stuff up and post it as fact. He's always wrong but acts like he's an expert. Lol

Once Slatter retires, their avg should go down depending on which FAs they sign.

venecol said:

I agree it's a dumb stat but that dude keeps saying Pats are one of the youngest and that's BS. He just likes to make stuff up and post it as fact. He's always wrong but acts like he's an expert. Lol

Once Slatter retires, their avg should go down depending on which FAs they sign.

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Technically, you are right that the Pats are one the "oldest" teams in the league.

The Gr8est said:

And a lot of players get limited opportunities, and often due to draft status, if they fail to make a good first impression they “age out” and teams move in to the next thing.

Granted, most of them likely wouldn’t have made it anyway, they were drafted late for a reason, but they still get short shrift on opportunities.

QB reps in games is the most precious commodity for non-ST players.

BB was known to give players the chance to compete regardless of draft status, but not so with other teams.

The Pats got Danny Woodhead because the Rats kept the highly drafted player over the better performer.

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I just can't imagine a single example like this in the modern era. Who could it possibly be? Even Kurt Warner found a spot eventually. Warren Moon. These are examples of passed over guys. I'm not saying people don't get passed over / sit for a long while, I'm saying they eventually get their chance.

Sect140 said:

They tried to rebuild in 2021 but failed. I believe it was 165 million guaranteed money spent on free agents, 137 million guaranteed in the first two days.

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The 2021 rebuild was a big success for the D. We lost 6 old slow starters and replaced them with a bunch of young fast starters.

Mac Jones and Tyquan on offense are failures.

But we've added 3 starting O-linemen, a couple backups, Demario Douglas & Rham. That's very very little, obviously. But if they had hit on a QB and taken Pickens, this would be a different story. Think about that: 2 bad picks send us over the top into massive rebuild mode. It doesn't make much sense.

As for FA and spending a lot of money, everyone knows FA is not the place to go to build your team, especially in a rebuild. You add to your team.

We added decent players in Judon, Peppers, Mills, Bourne & Hunter Henry. We had failures with Algholor & Jonnu. In retrospect, they didn't even cost all that much. That's just the price of doing business. And one never even knows if we had a QB how they would've turned out.

When people say we didn't try to put anything around Mac, they neglect all the FAs that were brought in as well as the 16 picks on offense since 2021, as opposed to 11 on D. Mac Jones and Tyquan are essentially what has caused the rebuild to fail on offense.

rochrist said:

The fear is you blow the chance to pick a player who is likely to be a mainstay for a decade or more on a bust like Zach Wilson. The only one of the top three I see as close to sure thing is Williams, and even he has questions about his mental makeup. Daniels just looks to me like a guy who made a ton of plays through the air in college and will be misses or turnovers in the NFL, and ton more plays with his feet, which as his size will get him killed in the NFL.

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It's obvious to me by now that this board is littered with Draft King degenerates. Having the first, second, third or Nth pick just means we get a chance at selecting {Total Eligible Players} - (N - 1). All the evaluations still need to happen and the fact that redrafts look nothing like the drafts is a sign at how flawed this process is.

It takes more than one draft to build a team and I'd rather not be a perennial dumpster diving team so cashing in #3 for a sure fire, can't miss prospect and building a team that is a destination rather than disease is the way to go. People seem to forget Patrick Mahomes was drafted by a perennial playoff team who when they had a chance at a high pick the last time they sucked (2012-13) they drafted Eric Fisher who locked down LT until 2020. Imagine what Mahomes' career trajectory would have looked like if he was drafted by a team with 13 or more losses.

rochrist said:

Mahomes was 10th. Allen was 7th. Watson was 12th. Jackson was 32d! Pickett was 20th. (and is awful) Only 4 off that list were even in the top five.

You know who WERE in the top five. Zach Wilson and Trey Lance. Jameis Winston. Marcus Mariota. MItch Trubisky. Blake Bortles. Sam Darnold.

Picking a QB in the top five just because is not a guarantee of success.

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You are arguing with yourself, because no one has said that top 5 was a guarantee of success, the discussion was about teams building around QB’s, and all of those teams took 1st round QB’s to build around. But feel free to post the contending teams built around QB’s taken after the first round. I can give you one off the top of my head, Philly.