OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

I'll say it again: Bill is very unique and very valuable.

Personnel, coaching, drafting, free agency, gameplans...they are all unified with the Patriots because of Bill. He is able to see all of these things at once...how a guy in college will fit into specific schemes, how different positions are subject to the laws of supply and demand. And most importantly, how football players translate to economic values to the team's salary cap.

Most teams have their coach (football philosophy), their scouts (player talent), their GM (contracts and supply/demand), and their cap guru (internal finances). Belichick oversees all of them and is the final decision maker.

That's why Bill is more valuable than any coach or GM, even though on a one-on-one basis, he might no necessarily provide a huge advantage in coaching, drafting, GM, etc. He isn't necessarily an outlier as a coach or GM, but he's an outlier because he does all these things and it gives the team a huge advantage in its vision, consistency, and results.

Why isn't he an outlier in terms of coaching? Why doesn't he actually give the team a 3 additional wins per season due to them being "better than the sum of their players"? Why doesn't he get consistent and significantly better results at drafting? Have a higher free agency hit rate? Because all of those things are virtually impossible. It's like asking why a hedge fund manager doesn't outperform every other hedge fund manager by a large amount month after month.

StrawHatPatriot said:

Going 14-6 with those guys isn't anything to write home about.

I'm not a "Belichick sucks without Brady" bandwagoner, but some of the ways we praise Bill displays a really low bar. A LOT of coaches have had 10-12 win seasons QBs that are no better or even worse than Matt Cassel, and rosters that were worse than that 2008 Pats team. Matt Nagy won 12 games with Mitch Tribusky, Rex Ryan got multiple 10-win seasons with Mark F'n Sanchez, Bill Cowher took Neil O'Donnell, Tommy Maddox, and Kordell Stewart to multiple deep playoff runs, etc. That Matt Cassell year was not impressive, and back then a lot of people (or at least me) were so angry because Brady and the Pats would have easily won that year given how weak the field was (which is ANOTHER reason why going 11-5 with Matt Cassell was not impressive; the schedule was one of the easiest ever).

Again, Belichick is still great, but we need to accept the fact that "winning with any QB" is NOT his strong suit or claim to fame. He's good with general gameplanning and managing/neutralizing opponents, and the subtleties (penalties, punting, special teams) that put his best players in position to make winning plays.

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I’m not really a believer that a healthy Brady means a Super Bowl lock in 2008. That defense was not very good. They didn’t really do anything that well. Finished statistically middle-to-below-middle of the pack with the benefit of a very easy schedule. Still gave up 28 or more points five times that year.

Pats probably finish 12-4, as the Colts loss was on Cassel but they are a one and done candidate.

JMC00 said:

Went 14-6 with them and 1 of the losses was when Brissett had to play with a throwing thumb that needed season ending surgery.

That's a .700 winning percentage.


BUT BUT THIS YEAR

-Newton runs to the outside- Win against Seattle
-Newton plays against KC- Win against KC
-If they were able to practice more than once in 2 weeks- Win against Denver
-Newton tucks the ball into his left arm- Win against Buffalo

7-9 could have been 11-5.

and that's with a roster that you claimed was the worst in the league

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A lot of 6-9 win teams can say “if only” and find a much better record. Pats aren’t unique there.

JMC00 said:

vs winning teams in 2020


Brady (with a loaded team): 1 win

Belichick (with the worst roster ever in football according to you): 2 wins

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How cute.

TommyBrady12 said:

And i'm still waiting for him to use the search function to show me all those posters who think Bill is the GOAT of GMs...so far just one, which he already mentioned.

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Hi Tommy, not looking to get in the middle of any fun arguments between my boys, lol.... just wanted to give a shout out for the mention of the search function....

1960Pats said:

You're cherry picking.
He went 5-13 with Drew Bledsoe until Brady stepped in.
He went 18-1 the year before 2008 with Brady.
He had quite a few poor years in Cleveland.
He has a 7-9 record since he dumped Brady.
Not only is the case not closed, the opening is getting wider.

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Let me punch holes in all these


5-13 with Bledsoe

He had to clean up Carroll's roster mess and Bledsoe wasn't a good QB. Reminder Carroll finished the previous season 2-6 with a similair roster.


He went 18-1 the year before 2008 with Brady.

I really don't understand how 2007 is brought up in regard to 2008. Fact was Brady getting injured took out a lot of hype for that season in the locker room and yet with a guy that hadn't played a meaningful snap since high school went 11-5. I really find it funny how all the anti-Belichick people point to 2008 as a negative for Belichick.


He had quite a few poor years in Cleveland.

Browns were 3-13 before he got there, they then went
7-9
7-9
11-5 (made playoffs, beat Parcells and the Pats in the playoffs. Last Browns coach to win a playoff game)
5-11 (started the year 3-3 and then Modell made the announcement the team was moving and that basically sabotaged the season)



He has a 7-9 record since he dumped Brady.

Damn what a terrible coach getting a team that needs a rebuild and had terrible QB play to 7-9..... Still had more wins against winning teams this year than Brady did.

TommyBrady12 said:

And i'm still waiting for him to use the search function to show me all those posters who think Bill is the GOAT of GMs...so far just one, which he already mentioned.

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I think Bill is arguably the GOAT football mind. Paul Brown, Bill Walsh, and Bill Belichick are the three guys I'd want to build my team. The problem is you can't categorize him as just a coach or just a GM. It seems the argument about where he ranks as a GM is going to get mucked up every time because of the blurred lines of where being a GM ends and being a coach begins, and vice versa.

Even though I think Bill might be the best football person of all-time, that doesn't mean he's without flaws or that all of his ideas are right.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

I think Bill is arguably the GOAT football mind. Paul Brown, Bill Walsh, and Bill Belichick are the three guys I'd want to build my team. The problem is you can't categorize him as just a coach or just a GM. It seems the argument about where he ranks as a GM is going to get mucked up every time because of the blurred lines of where being a GM ends and being a coach begins, and vice versa.

Even though I think Bill might be the best football person of all-time, that doesn't mean he's without some flaw or that all of his ideas are right.

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Yeah I agree, he's up there among the best.

Bill Walsh decided to take Giovanni Carmazzi over Brady in the 2000 draft and later commented that they were nervous someone else was going to take Carmazzi lol. Mistakes happen to the best of them. And Bill has made PLENTY of mistakes over the past 2 decades in the draft. Heck, I remember pounding the table for Clay Matthews in 2009 when we desperately needed a pass rush and he fell into our hands- his pass-rushing alone probably gives us SB 46.

JMC00 said:

Ya remember all those clutch catches he had in the 2016 playoffs......

Seriously man don't spew hottakes if you can't remember facts. Gronk was done and on IR before Thanksgiving that year and they still won a SB.

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Hey they got one. Good job pointing that out. High fives all around! This must've made you feel really good pointing this out.

But you conveniently forgot about Gronk's importance in 2014 and that clutch catch in the 2018 Super Bowl setting up the Michel TD. Without Gronk, they don't win either! They aren't even in the game without Gronk against the Eagles. A hobbled Gronk was clearly the difference in 2011 Super Bowl and no Gronk in the 2012 AFCCG. How about his freak acrobatic clutch catches in 2015? Not even in that game without him, but keep down playing his importance.

So let's rephrase it then. Pats probably only win ONE Super Bowl since 2004 without a HOF TE in Gronk. Is that better?

sb1 said:

I’m not really a believer that a healthy Brady means a Super Bowl lock in 2008. That defense was not very good. They didn’t really do anything that well. Finished statistically middle-to-below-middle of the pack with the benefit of a very easy schedule. Still gave up 28 or more points five times that year.

Pats probably finish 12-4, as the Colts loss was on Cassel but they are a one and done candidate.

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As shown in 2009, I think the Ravens would've been the only team that may have beaten the Pats in 2008. Brady would've beaten the Chargers and Steelers, so I give them at least a 14-2 record at worst. Pats D was playing a heck of a lot better than it did earlier in the year. They had a worse defense in 2010 and they went 14-2, so it's not impossible.

JMC00 said:

5-13 with Bledsoe

He had to clean up Carroll's roster mess and Bledsoe wasn't a good QB. Reminder Carroll finished the previous season 2-6 with a similair roster.

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So why did Bill sign Bledsoe to a 10 year $100M contract in 2001 after going 5-11 with him?

TheRainMaker said:

So why did Bill sign Bledsoe to a 10 year $100M contract in 2001?

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AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Head Coach Bill Belichick said having the team's quarterback in place for the long-term was a huge relief.

"As a coach, it's very important to know that your key players are going to be with you for a while," Belichick said. "We want to develop a strong franchise here for the long term, and it is great to look forward knowing that Drew is committed here for a long time. That makes things a lot easier for our planning and for the stability of the team."

TheRainMaker said:

As shown in 2009, I think the Ravens would've been the only team that may have beaten the Pats in 2008. Brady would've beaten the Chargers and Steelers, so I give them at least a 14-2 record at worst. Pats D was playing a heck of a lot better than it did earlier in the year. They had a worse defense in 2010 and they went 14-2, so it's not impossible.

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It is too bad they ran out of season. They were playing great football at the end of it. Crushed the NFC Champion cardinals.

TheRainMaker said:

So why did Bill sign Bledsoe to a 10 year $100M contract in 2001 after going 5-11 with him?

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I don’t think Bill had that role back then at least not by title. Pioli was GM. I think Kraft was involved in the negotiations.

sb1 said:

I don’t think Bill had that role back then at least not by title. Pioli was GM. I think Kraft was involved in the negotiations.

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I had a feeling I'd hear that. However, I don't think BB had a problem with it or else that could've been a problem when he was accepting the job. And didn't Belichick hire Pioli?

Kraft also could've stepped in in 2001 when Bledsoe was healthy again to get his job back.

TheRainMaker said:

I had a feeling I'd hear that. However, I don't think BB had a problem with it or else that could've been a problem when he was accepting the job.

Kraft also could've stepped in in 2001 when Bledsoe was healthy again to get his job back.

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I’m sure he had some input at least.

I also really think only one coach would make a decision like Bill did (Brady over Drew). There was no way Bill wouldn’t be fired if it didn’t work out.

TheRainMaker said:

I had a feeling I'd hear that. However, I don't think BB had a problem with it or else that could've been a problem when he was accepting the job. And didn't Belichick hire Pioli?

Kraft also could've stepped in in 2001 when Bledsoe was healthy again to get his job back.

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Agree. I strongly suspect that Belichick and Kraft discussed Bledsoe before Belichick signed on. Still doesn't bode well for the BeLiChIcK mAdE bRaDy crowd though.

Belichick stuck with Brady in the 2001 season when he realized Brady was better, and it took a lot of guts to stick with it while the perception from the fanbase and around the NFL was that Bledsoe was the obvious choice. I remember at the time wanting Bledsoe back too, but what did I know? He was the face of the franchise. For Belichick's role, that's good enough for me and exactly why he's a great coach/GM.

I just don't understand the need to take this like 3 steps beyond that and turn him into a deity and make it seem like Belichick was programming Brady's play with a software upload. Brady took over an offense led by Troy Brown, David Patten, Antowain Smith, Patrick Pass, etc. - maybe the worst group of skill players on a SB winning team. The team had absolutely no business making the playoffs with that supporting cast, but Brady elevated them. Any other take is pretty disingenuous in hindsight. It wasn't amazing coaching from Charlie Weis or Belichick after all, or some magical offensive line. Belichick stuck with Brady; Brady won games. That's how a coach-player relationship works.

Ice_Ice_Brady said:

Agree. I strongly suspect that Belichick and Kraft discussed Bledsoe before Belichick signed on. Still doesn't bode well for the BeLiChIcK mAdE bRaDy crowd though.

Belichick stuck with Brady in the 2001 season when he realized Brady was better, and it took a lot of guts to stick with it while the perception from the fanbase and around the NFL was that Bledsoe was the obvious choice. I remember at the time wanting Bledsoe back too, but what did I know? He was the face of the franchise. For Belichick's role, that's good enough for me and exactly why he's a great coach/GM.

I just don't understand the need to take this like 3 steps beyond that and turn him into a deity and make it seem like Belichick was programming Brady's play with a software upload. Brady took over an offense led by Troy Brown, David Patten, Antowain Smith, Patrick Pass, etc. - maybe the worst group of skill players on a SB winning team. The team had absolutely no business making the playoffs with that supporting cast, but Brady elevated them. Any other take is pretty disingenuous in hindsight. It wasn't amazing coaching from Charlie Weis or Belichick after all, or some magical offensive line. Belichick stuck with Brady; Brady won games. That's how a coach-player relationship works.

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There aren't many here who feel Belichick made Brady. On the other hand, there are MANY people here who think Brady made Belichick. Kontra is one of those guys who posts Belichick's record without Brady every chance he gets and the implications are quite clear. In reality, the pro-Belichick crowd, by and large, feels that both complemented each other to be a great success.

TommyBrady12 said:

Don't you get it? the 6 super bowls are 100% Brady

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Yes. Patsfans have the Junior High crush on the Brady. He’s dreamy.