PatsCast Episode 21 (follow-up with Jay Shields re: week 2)

[BradyFTW!]

Oswlek cited the same issues that Jay raised in the podcast. I've yet to see you refute them, other than generalities and vague assertions like "if you disagree with the playcalling, that doesn't mean the playcalling was bad." That wasn't even his point, and to be honest, that's a very superficial reading of the analysis Jay laid out.

So far, this is actually somewhat similar to how things went in the Connolly thread.

Definitely, and the other big issue that Jay raised, which I'm just not football-intelligent enough to spot without someone else pointing it out first, is that the Jets had virtually no lag in recognizing adjustments and responding to them. When the Patriots made an offensive adjustment, Ryan immediately saw it and countered it within 1 to 2 plays. O'Brien, on the other hand, only seemed to make adjustments between drives, so after the first or second play of any drive the Pats were essentially playing into the Jets' hands. That was compounded by the fact that the Jets refused to respect the run because they knew that we wouldn't stick with it. Hopefully the Bills game was the start of a trend where, if a team gives us the run, we'll take it for as long as they continue to give it.

Pretty fascinating observation on Jay's part, I thought, and rewatching the second half in that context was very revealing.

 

[Deus Irae]

Oswlek cited the same issues that Jay raised in the podcast. I've yet to see you refute them, other than generalities and vague assertions like "if you disagree with the playcalling, that doesn't mean the playcalling was bad." To be honest, that's a very superficial reading of the points Jay laid out.

So far, this is actually somewhat similar to how things went in the Connolly thread.

Last response, since you're now being absolutely ridiculous and pulling in other threads not even related to the playcalling issue, and using two examples:

Missed pass to Gronk
Missed pass to Crumpler

Those are not generalities. They are specific occurences where playcalling got players comfortably open and the execution failed. I've noted them over and over, as well as noting the Moss plays and the strip sack, and others have done so, too. As has been pointed out time and again, not one drive in the second half stalled because of playcalling, and every drive in that second half would have continued had there not been a problem with execution.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Last response, since you're now being absolutely ridiculous and pulling in other threads not even related to the playcalling issue, and using two examples:

Missed pass to Gronk
Missed pass to Crumpler

Those are not generalities. They are specific occurences where playcalling got players comfortably open and the execution failed. I've noted them over and over, as well as noting the Moss plays and the strip sack, and others have done so, too. As has been pointed out time and again, not one drive in the second half stalled because of playcalling, and every drive in that second half would have continued had there not been a problem with execution.

And as a number of us have repeatedly noted, execution failures are a part of the game that must be accounted for. The Jets had them too. If your standard is perfection, you can blame every loss on failure to execute, and every victory on your opponent's failure to execute. That's more or less what Belichick does every week, specifically because it's a vague comment that's without any substance. Might as well say that water is wet.

It only gains relevance when you apply a realistic standard (not perfection). The question to ask is whether the playcalling put the players in the best position to execute. Against the Jets, that clearly wasn't the case, for all of the reasons laid out in the podcast.

 

[JackBauer]

Last response, since you're now being absolutely ridiculous and pulling in other threads not even related to the playcalling issue ...

It was cited because you're using the same argumentative tact in both threads.

and using two examples:

Missed pass to Gronk
Missed pass to Crumpler

Those are not generalities. They are specific occurences where playcalling got players comfortably open and the execution failed. I've noted them over and over, as well as noting the Moss plays and the strip sack, and others have done so, too. As has been pointed out time and again, not one drive in the second half stalled because of playcalling, and every drive in that second half would have continued had there not been a problem with execution.

When someone here makes the claim that failed execution in the Jets game wasn't a factor in the loss, do let me know. That has absolutely no bearing on the "adjustment lag" Jay laid out pretty convincingly, as well as the ZBS runs. Of course, you can always claim that if only they have surmounted that inferior call with superior execution, it wouldn't have been a problem.

 

[JackBauer]

And as a number of us have repeatedly noted, execution failures are a part of the game that must be accounted for. The Jets had them too. If your standard is perfection, you can blame every loss on failure to execute, and every victory on your opponent's failure to execute. That's more or less what Belichick does every week, specifically because it's a vague comment that's without any substance. Might as well say that water is wet.

It only gains relevance when you apply a realistic standard (not perfection). The question to ask is whether the playcalling put the players in the best position to execute. Against the Jets, that clearly wasn't the case, for all of the reasons laid out in the podcast.

I guess there can never be coaching mistakes, because in each instance it is theoretically possible for players to execute flawlessly.

 

[jays52]

I actually approached the review trying to prove myself wrong. For the first drive, it was on execution. Gronkowski missing an assignment in a zone run that was otherwise there is an obvious example of this. I think a lot of the perceived execution problems were due to the line play that the Jets were doing. It was actually really good schematic stuff that you can't expect your linemen to consistently win. The main point I was driving at in reference to OB was the "adjustment lag" that others mentioned. I believe that there were adjustments made, and that in general they were good adjustments. The issue was simply that they were not made within time and because of this it allowed the Jets to remain in the drivers seat. If you watch the game carefully with this in mind it is pretty clear that the taking away was consistently ahead of the attacking.

 

[SuperPatsFan]

Great stuff.

Just a note that you should always mention quarter/time/down/distance for those of us following along on the video and/or referring to the play-by-play at ESPN.com.

ETA: And the host needs to stay focused and on topic. I thought we were going to go play-by-play, drive-by-drive, and we drift off to reminiscing about SB42. WTF?

 

[RayClay]

"See, we can run the ball. We promise we won't do it again".

Yup, that's the problem. How many more years before we figure that out since the rest of the league has it on flash cards.

The Patriots won't stay with the run in the second half, no matter what.

 

[patfanken]

One quick question - I'd like to know if Jay broke down a "coaches tape", which shows all 22 players, or if he was breaking down the TV broadcast?

If it was the later, it would be very hard to try and discern exactly what the Jets were doing to try and prevent the Pats from moving the ball as well as they did in the first half, and/or what the Pats were doing to adjust to what the Jets were doing.

Let me know

 

[BradyFTW!]

One quick question - I'd like to know if Jay broke down a "coaches tape", which shows all 22 players, or if he was breaking down the TV broadcast?

If it was the later, it would be very hard to try and discern exactly what the Jets were doing to try and prevent the Pats from moving the ball as well as they did in the first half, and/or what the Pats were doing to adjust to what the Jets were doing.

Let me know

We talked about that at some length in the podcast. It was using the TV broadcast, and if you listen to it there's a fairly involved discussion about what you can see, what he was and wasn't willing to take away from that, given those constraints.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Great job guys (as always)

My view was a combination of bad playcalling AND poor throws from TB lost us that game offensively. Plus the fact we only ran 4 times using zone as opposed to directional made it all too predictable and meant the Jets could play the pass for 2 quarters. Even then if Brady makes some better throws we could still have won

I really liked what we did against the bills where we kept running, we looked away from Welker and Moss when they were covered and we use Tate, Hernandez etc a little more and getting more 3rd down go-to guys as was discussed

My only hope is next week we dont go back to this second half 90% pass out the gun mentality staring down the same 2 guys

 

[patfanken]

We talked about that at some length in the podcast. It was using the TV broadcast, and if you listen to it there's a fairly involved discussion about what you can see, what he was and wasn't willing to take away from that, given those constraints.

Thanks, I missed that discussion, since my podcast stopped about a quarter of the way into it and I haven't had a chance to get back to it.

 

[Mike the Brit]

I guess the way I'd most like to review the games would be with a TIVO of coaches' tape and an NFL coach on the sofa next to me. Failing that, having Jay run through what he saw is the next best thing.

Thanks.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

As others have said, great podcast. This one got me even more excited about football season. (I didn't know that was possible.)

Interesting analogy of the new coach v. the young player and taking time to develop. Coach B says that Year 2 is where the big jumps are made for players. We'll have to see how well that applies to de facto coordinators.

It's apparent the Belichik will have to focus on the defense for a while, but I wonder if they begin to gel (this year or next), whether he'll be able to spend some time speeding up the adjustment process on offense. He's not going to be much help when he's huddled up with the LBs.

One specific question: you derided the idea of zone runs against a penetrating defense, but you also mentioned that the Jets had abandoned their run blitzing in favor of show-no go for most of the half. Did we simply choose to run zone after they adjusted back to pressure defense and land a half-step behind, or was the penetration of the front 3 enough to disrupt our zone runs? If the latter, I'd be more concerned about our ability to zone run at all. If the former, it's just more evidence of O'Brien and Brady being a step behind Ryan.