OT: Steph Curry joins Brady & Gretzky as history's only unanimous MVPs

RobertWeathers · May 11, 2016

Ok so now we are getting somewhere...

Fixit said:
Once again, Curry shot 56% from 2-pt range this year, which is higher than Bird ever had.

He made ~68% of his layups which a vast majority came on the break. Thats great. Everything else inside of 3 was mostly right elbow with a shooting % much less than 56% outside of the paint. Looks to be in the mid to high 40%s

This might help you understand.

Stephen Curry is the Engine That Makes the Warriors Go - TFB

A vast majority of Bird's points were 15-20ft with only 10% of his career shots being from 3pt land and I can guarantee you he did not have a lot of buckets off of offensive rebounds or fast break layups.

Fixit said:
You're arguing that Bird is a better shooter because he shot from inside the arc a lot more than Curry, and that Curry's ridiculous accuracy from behind the arc is actually a knock against him.

I assume you have played basketball, yes? Question: Which is harder? Shooting from 18ft with someone 1ft in front of you who is your height or from 23ft with someone 2 ft in front of you and your height.

Because of their height, leaping ability, shooting style there are tons of players in NBA history who shoot better from deep than mid range.

You need more shooting touch from the mid-range and to be a little taller to have success. Common knowledge.

Fixit said:
There's no place to go from there, my friend. So I'm going to stop wasting time trying.

Steph has had a transcendent season no question but as it relates to the entire floor and the spacing of defenders, he is a not as diverse of a shooter as Bird across the spectrum.

3 pointers- Steph > Bird
Fast break layups: Steph > Bird
back to the basket 2-10ft: Bird > Steph
back to the basket 1/2 court inside 3pt w/ a hand in the face: Bird > Steph
facing the basket 1/2 court inside 3pt w/ a hand in the face: Bird > Steph

That is why Bird is a better shooter.

Fixit · May 11, 2016

robertweathers said:
Ok so now we are getting somewhere...

He made ~68% of his layups which a vast majority came on the break. Thats great. Everything else inside of 3 was mostly right elbow with a shooting % much less than 56% outside of the paint. Looks to be in the mid to high 40%s

This might help you understand.

Stephen Curry is the Engine That Makes the Warriors Go - TFB

A vast majority of Bird's points were 15-20ft with only 10% of his career shots being from 3pt land and I can guarantee you he did not have a lot of buckets off of offensive rebounds or fast break layups.

I assume you have played basketball, yes? Question: Which is harder? Shooting from 18ft with someone 1ft in front of you who is your height or from 23ft with someone 2 ft in front of you and your height.

Because of their height, leaping ability, shooting style there are tons of players in NBA history who shoot better from deep than mid range.

You need more shooting touch from the mid-range and to be a little taller to have success. Common knowledge.

Steph has had a transcendent season no question but as it relates to the entire floor and the spacing of defenders, he is a not as diverse of a shooter as Bird across the spectrum.

3 pointers- Steph > Bird
Fast break layups: Steph > Bird
back to the basket 2-10ft: Bird > Steph
back to the basket 1/2 court inside 3pt w/ a hand in the face: Bird > Steph
facing the basket 1/2 court inside 3pt w/ a hand in the face: Bird > Steph

That is why Bird is a better shooter.

I got it, I got it. All Curry does is shoot open spotup threes. Such a one trick pony.

Edit: The rampant condescension was a nice touch, by the way.

RobertWeathers · May 11, 2016

Fixit said:
I got it, I got it. All Curry does is shoot open spotup threes. Such a one trick pony.

I never said that but if you want to make yourself feel better by thinking I did go ahead.

Fixit · May 11, 2016

robertweathers said:
I never said that but if you want to make yourself feel better by thinking I did go ahead.

Stop. Just stop. You've spent the entire thread painting the picture that Curry scores on open threes and fast break layups, and that all Bird did was shoot 19-foot (the hardest range to shoot from!) turnarounds with a hand in his face. Not only is that woefully inaccurate, it's cherry-picking to an absurd degree.

Congrats, you're a Colts fan arguing why Manning is better than Brady.

Like I said, this is pointless. So see you in another thread!

RobertWeathers · May 11, 2016

Fixit said:
Stop. Just stop. You've spent the entire thread painting the picture that Curry scores on open threes and fast break layups, and that all Bird did was shoot 19-foot (the hardest range to shoot from!) turnarounds with a hand in his face. Not only is that woefully inaccurate, it's cherry-picking to an absurd degree.

Congrats, you're a Colts fan arguing why Manning is better than Brady.

Like I said, this is pointless. So see you in another thread!

Fixit you are a good dude but seriously....

Curry does a great job moving w/o the ball, creating space, etc. Look at Curry's shot chart. It tells you all you need to understand about the man's game. 70% of his shots are from 22ft out. Not a bad thing. Just who he is.

Bird scored ~21k points and shot in the 52% range 42% range from 3 in his prime before his back blew out....how do you think he did that when only 2k of those were from 3 point land? Hint: All over

letekro · May 11, 2016

robertweathers said:
Ok so now we are getting somewhere...

He made ~68% of his layups which a vast majority came on the break. Thats great. Everything else inside of 3 was mostly right elbow with a shooting % much less than 56% outside of the paint. Looks to be in the mid to high 40%s

This might help you understand.

Stephen Curry is the Engine That Makes the Warriors Go - TFB

A vast majority of Bird's points were 15-20ft with only 10% of his career shots being from 3pt land and I can guarantee you he did not have a lot of buckets off of offensive rebounds or fast break layups.

I assume you have played basketball, yes? Question: Which is harder? Shooting from 18ft with someone 1ft in front of you who is your height or from 23ft with someone 2 ft in front of you and your height.

Because of their height, leaping ability, shooting style there are tons of players in NBA history who shoot better from deep than mid range.

You need more shooting touch from the mid-range and to be a little taller. Common knowledge.

Steph has had a transcendent season no question but as it relates to the entire floor and the spacing of defenders, he is a not as diverse of a shooter as Bird across the spectrum.

3 pointers- Steph > Bird
Fast break layups: Steph > Bird
back to the basket 2-10ft: Bird > Steph
facing the basket 1/2 court inside 3pt w/ a hand in the face: Bird > Steph

That is why Bird is a better shooter.

Your argument is akin to saying, Wade Boggs/Ty Cobb/Ichiro were better hitters than Steroids-Era Barry Bonds because those guys hit way more singles and doubles. At his juiced-up peak, Bonds hit homeruns like those guys hit singles.

Since Steph can hit 3s at a true FG% of 67.5% why would he ever practice or attempt in games midrange shots? Answer: he really doesn't. According to Stephen Curry Shot Chart - NBA 2015-2016 Season - vorped.com he has attempted only 201 midrange jumpers this year vs. 813 threes. I doubt there are any guards in the history of the league who have hit even 50% from 15-20 feet over the course of their career, let alone 67.5%. I am virtually certain Larry didn't even shoot 50% from that range. So why penalize Steph for foregoing the lower-value shots for the higher-value ones? Every player would do this (including Larry) if they could hit them with the accuracy, and just as importantly, get the volume of looks that Steph does. They don't, because they can't, because they are not as good as shooters.

RobertWeathers · May 11, 2016

letekro said:
Your argument is akin to saying, Wade Boggs/Ty Cobb/Ichiro were better hitters than Steroids-Era Barry Bonds because those guys hit way more singles and doubles. At his juiced-up peak, Bonds hit homeruns like those guys hit singles.

That comparison doesn't correlate to the discussion.

We are talking about who the better shooter was. Shooting is the ability to make buckets anywhere under any circumstances. Inside, outside, corner, top of the key, from 3. Tight D, wide open, back to the basket, face to the hoop, etc. Not the better player or the better scorer. To the average hoops fan there is no difference. To Fixit, me and maybe you the difference is noticeable.

Quite frankly, this is a Ted Williams vs Stan Musial argument, is small, but still an argument.

letekro said:
YSince Steph can hit 3s at a true FG% of 67.5% why would he ever practice or attempt in games midrange shots? Answer: he really doesn't. According to Stephen Curry Shot Chart - NBA 2015-2016 Season - vorped.com he has attempted only 201 midrange jumpers this year vs. 813 threes.

Of course. Hes immensely talented. It's also important to the GS offense to have spacing so it's key for him to hang on the perimeter as it helps. Keep in mind this was his first year shooting over 50%.

letekro said:
I doubt there are any guards in the history of the league who have hit even 50% from 15-20 feet over the course of their career, let alone 67.5%. I am virtually certain Larry didn't even shoot 50% from that range.

Several guards. Stockton is one.

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for 2-PT Field Goal Pct | Basketball-Reference.com

I'd bet the farm that LB shot 50% from 15-20ft in 85, 87 and 88.

letekro said:
So why penalize Steph for foregoing the lower-value shots for the higher-value ones? Every player would do this (including Larry) if they could hit them with the accuracy, and just as importantly, get the volume of looks that Steph does. They don't, because they can't, because they are not as good as shooters.

That is the argument and I get the math. However, in your and Fixit's eyes, Bird is penalized for not shooting enough 3s even though in his prime he knocked them down at 42%. The guy made shots from everywhere else on the floor every way possible but that's not good enough? He proved it. Maybe Steph can but we have yet to see it.

letekro · May 11, 2016

robertweathers said:
That comparison doesn't correlate to the discussion.

We are talking about who the better shooter was. Shooting is the ability to make buckets anywhere under any circumstances. Inside, outside, corner, top of the key, from 3. Tight D, wide open, back to the basket, face to the hoop, etc. Not the better player or the better scorer. To the average hoops fan there is no difference. To Fixit, me and maybe you the difference is noticeable.

Quite frankly, this is a Ted Williams vs Stan Musial argument, is small, but still an argument.

Of course. Hes immensely talented. It's also important to the GS offense to have spacing so it's key for him to hang on the perimeter as it helps. Keep in mind this was his first year shooting over 50%.

Several guards. Stockton is one.

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for 2-PT Field Goal Pct | Basketball-Reference.com

I'd bet the farm that LB shot 50% from 15-20ft in 85, 87 and 88.

That is the argument and I get the math. However, in your and Fixit's eyes, Bird is penalized for not shooting enough 3s even though in his prime he knocked them down at 42%. The guy made shots from everywhere else on the floor every way possible but that's not good enough? He proved it. Maybe Steph can but we have yet to see it.

If your definition of "best shooter" is the guy who can best "make buckets anywhere under any circumstances," then you've got the wrong guy as well. Better career FG% than LB, and far, far, far, more difficult and varied shot chart:

RobertWeathers · May 11, 2016

letekro said:
If your definition of "best shooter" is the guy who can best "make buckets anywhere under any circumstances," then you've got the wrong guy as well. Better career FG% than LB, and far, far, far, more difficult and varied shot chart:

Jordan was the greatest penetrating guard/SF who ever lived. In the title years he became a very good midrange to decent 3pt shooter but never had Bird's midrange game or Stephs outside shot.

In his prime Bird and Steph were/are vastly superior shooters than MJ. Thats pretty well known.

letekro · May 11, 2016

robertweathers said:
Jordan was the greatest penetrating guard/SF who ever lived. later in his career he became a very good midrange and 3pt shooter but never had Bird's midrange game or Stephs outside shot.

In his prime Bird and Steph were/are vastly superior shooters than MJ. Thats pretty well known.

In most of the championship years (certainly the latter 3), he was primarily a jump shooter (when he shot well over 50% under more duress from better defenders than Bird was ever privy to). And what is this "greatest penetrating guard/SF who ever lived" stuff? He is the greatest PLAYER who ever lived. His shot making, from all over the court, is to this day unparalleled. Taking all of your contradictions together, we are left with this: "Larry Bird is the best shooter of all time because he is the best midrange shooter of all time." I mean, I guess that's fine, but seems like a weird way to judge it.

RobertWeathers · May 11, 2016

letekro said:
In most of the championship years (certainly the latter 3), he was primarily a jump shooter. And what is this "greatest penetrating guard/SF who ever lived" stuff?

I agree with the jump shooting. He also developed a low-post turn-around fade that was absurd.

letekro said:
His shot making, from all over the court, is to this day unparalleled. Taking all of your contradictions together, we are left with this: "Larry Bird is the best shooter of all time because he is the best midrange shooter of all time." I mean, I guess that's fine, but seems like a weird way to judge it.

There are no contradictions. To be clear.

Steph outside of 22ft.
Bird between 15-20ish.
MJ 10-15.
Jabbar inside 10ft.

Pretty simple.

letekro said:
He is the greatest PLAYER who ever lived.

Individual player....yes it is Jordan. Bird was a better shooter, passer and rebounder but Jordan has him offensively overall and is the 2nd greatest defensive player ever. Plus 6 rings and its all about the jewelry in the NBA.

However I'm one of those guys who believe that scoring and shooting while important, rebounding, defense and passing are just as important if no more so.

That distinction goes to the guy who won 11 titles in 13 years.

mosey threetupu · May 11, 2016

robertweathers said:
That is an argument for the players being better athletes- not better defensive players.

A player can be in supreme physical condition and still be horrible defensively.

Throw those 80s Celtics, 80's Pistons, 90s Bulls, Knicks and Rockets teams in the NBA now and your games just got slower, tighter and more physical. Refs let a lot more stuff go back then.

Disagree. The game was much faster paced in the 80's. Every other time up the court was a fast break.

RobertWeathers · May 11, 2016

mosey threetupu said:
Disagree. The game was much faster paced in the 80's. Every other time up the court was a fast break.

Not in the eastern conference.

Western conference yes.

letekro · May 11, 2016

robertweathers said:
I agree with the jump shooting. He also developed a low-post turn-around fade that was absurd.

There are no contradictions. To be clear.

Steph outside of 22ft.
Bird between 15-20ish.
MJ 10-15.
Jabbar inside 10ft.

Pretty simple.

Individual player....yes it is Jordan. Bird was a better shooter, passer and rebounder but Jordan has him offensively overall and is the 2nd greatest defensive player ever. Plus 6 rings and its all about the jewelry in the NBA.

However I'm one of those guys who believe that scoring and shooting while important, rebounding, defense and passing are just as important if no more so.

That distinction goes to the guy who won 11 titles in 13 years.

Shooters are like snipers. As you can see by the Jabbar-MJ-Bird-Curry progression, the perceived greatness of a "shooter" directly correlates to the distance at which they can accurately shoot. If a player comes along who can hit 45% from midcourt, he will be rightly considered the greatest shooter of all time, no matter how great these other players were from closer distances.

I can tell you know hoops, so I defer to you on Russell. I never saw him play, although I think a guy like Jordan who controls the ball is more valuable, all things considered.

RobertWeathers · May 12, 2016

letekro said:
Shooters are like snipers. As you can see by the Jabbar-MJ-Bird-Curry progression, the perceived greatness of a "shooter" directly correlates to the distance at which they can accurately shoot. If a player comes along who can hit 45% from midcourt, he will be rightly considered the greatest shooter of all time, no matter how great these other players were from closer distances.

I understand what you are saying. I view a shooter and sniper as different. I can absolutely embrace Steph as a GoAT sniper. What makes Steph great is that he is a prolific scoring sniper. NBA has never seen anything like it.

letekro said:
I can tell you know hoops, so I defer to you on Russell. I never saw him play, although I think a guy like Jordan who controls the ball is more valuable, all things considered.

The Jordan v Russell debate is not worth having. Totally different approaches and philosophies to the game. With that said, I tend to agree that the more a player has or is around the ball and can do the most with it the more valuable they are. Bird is a close 2nd but Jordan is superior in that regard. I include steals and blocked shots in that analysis.

Re: Russell- I can guarantee if you watched a few of Russell's games on YouTube or NBA.com you will not be impressed at first. He's one of those players like Magic, Larry and MJ who because they are so great and do the little things so well the can control an entire game without scoring 30. Russell was a 15/20 4 blocks a night player who was could guard anyone man to man. He was an excellent passer as well. Those Celts teams had incredible talent but as we all know you need to grind and know how to perform in those big moments to win a title and Russell did that 11 times in 13 years. Incredible.

Haterproof · May 13, 2016

Curry had a unbelievable season & deserved that MVP! All I know is the Warriors are repeating! OKC vs Golden state should be a fun series! I can't wait to see Cleveland face a real team unlike the bums of the eastern conference cellar!

RobertWeathers · May 13, 2016

Haterproof said:
Curry had a unbelievable season & deserved that MVP! All I know is the Warriors are repeating! OKC vs Golden state should be a fun series! I can't wait to see Cleveland face a real team unlike the bums of the eastern conference cellar!

Really impressed with the Thunder that series. Didn't think they had the toughness that could match the Spurs. Clearly they did. Plus younger legs help.

Careful what you wish for w/ GS vs Cavs. Both teams are better than last year with CLE being much better.

Froob · May 13, 2016

Spurs didn't stand much of a chance vs GS anyways, GS vs Cavs will be fun. Don't count out the Cavs....they have to play better defense but, they can hang with them offensively.

RobertWeathers · May 13, 2016

Froob said:
Spurs didn't stand much of a chance vs GS anyways, GS vs Cavs will be fun. Don't count out the Cavs....they have to play better defense but, they can hang with them offensively.

In hindsight I thought the Spurs had a chance vs GS if they sloooooowed the game way down, shot well and controlled the glass. I thought they had enough athleticism to keep up with them defensively.

Man was I wrong. They looked old.

Kontradiction · May 13, 2016

Haterproof said:
Curry had a unbelievable season & deserved that MVP! All I know is the Warriors are repeating! OKC vs Golden state should be a fun series! I can't wait to see Cleveland face a real team unlike the bums of the eastern conference cellar!

The Spurs looked their age last night. OKC/GS should be a fun series to watch. Being a Gator fan, this series really made me miss Billy Donovan. He out couched Pop throughout. The Spurs are arguably the deeper team of the two but OKC's adjustments paired with the Westbrook/Durant combo were superior.

OT: Steph Curry joins Brady & Gretzky as history's only unanimous MVPs

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