2011 Trade Comparison

jsull87 · Jun 20, 2011

Just something i had a look at then. I wanted to see the trades we made draft day and what we and the team we traded with got for those trades. i think this will be an interesting thing to keep a tab of during the season so see how it has worked out for both teams.

1. New Orleans

NO: #28: Mark Ingram (will probably start at RB for them & is cheaper then bush)
NE:#56: Shane Vareen (Will be interesting to see where he slots in and the impact he has on our offense)
2012 1st rounder (always makes our mock drafts more interesting)

2. Houston
Hou: #60 Brandon Harris (I'm sure they hope he contends for a starting CB spot)
NE: #73 Steven Ridley (Same ad Vareen for me i actually like how he runs)
#138 Marcus Cannon (alot of people think he is the steal of the draft and will start at RG for us eventually)

3.) Oakland
Oak: #92 Joseph Barksdale ( solid OT prospect)
#125 Taiwan Jones (complementary RB to Bush and Mcfadden)
NE: 2012 # 2 (obviously BB didn't like these rounds too much and wanted that 2nd rounder again)

I for one will be very interested to see how these trades turn out for both teams. I like the Houston trade already and will have to wait to 2012 to judge the other two properly.

Metaphors · Jun 20, 2011

Pending results on the field, these trades all seemed to be win-win...

Brees needs a strong running threat to open passing lanes on play action. Solid rushing attack in 2009 = MVP candidate and SB title. No so much last year.

Houston needs to make the playoffs this year or the patience of their fanbase will be pretty much exhausted. That means getting past Goober and the Dolts. Brandon Harris (especially where they got him) seems like a perfect pick to help get that done.

Both Barksdale and Jones were linked to the Raiders well before the draft, so they got 2 players that they believe will fit well with them. I'm not so sure, but I will concede that they need to win sooner rather than later.

It is going to be difficult to just straight compare these trades. Ingram, Harris and Barksdale should get full-time minutes right away. Vereen and Ridley will get situational snaps and Cannon may need the 2011 season to get into shape (cancer recovery and getting to his ideal weight). The 2012 picks will likely get fed into the Belichick circle of life so their impact may be too abstract to get a true value.

If the Saints or Raiders finish well below expectations this year, those trades swing heavily to the Pats. Otherwise I would say the everyone made out well in these deals.

patchick · Jun 20, 2011

Metaphors said:
The 2012 picks will likely get fed into the Belichick circle of life so their impact may be too abstract to get a true value.

Yep, I figure we traded #28 for Vereen plus a 2012 2nd & 2013 2nd. Then the 2013 2nd became a lower 2013 2nd + a 2014 3rd. The 2014 3rd was traded for a 2015 2nd, which we used.

So how is everybody feeling about #28 vs. four 2nd round picks, vesting over a period of 5 years?

SunnyDenmark · Jun 20, 2011

patchick said:
Yep, I figure we traded #28 for Vereen plus a 2012 2nd & 2013 2nd. Then the 2013 2nd became a lower 2013 2nd + a 2014 3rd. The 2014 3rd was traded for a 2015 2nd, which we used.

So how is everybody feeling about #28 vs. four 2nd round picks, vesting over a period of 5 years?

I love it - but it is just a matter of time before Polian and competition committee stop Belichicks' PONZI draft scheme. As it creates unfair competition when BB is wheeling and dealing with other head coaches/ gm's with room temperature IQ's.

jsull87 · Jun 20, 2011

Metaphors said:
Pending results on the field, these trades all seemed to be win-win...

Brees needs a strong running threat to open passing lanes on play action. Solid rushing attack in 2009 = MVP candidate and SB title. No so much last year.

Houston needs to make the playoffs this year or the patience of their fanbase will be pretty much exhausted. That means getting past Goober and the Dolts. Brandon Harris (especially where they got him) seems like a perfect pick to help get that done.

Both Barksdale and Jones were linked to the Raiders well before the draft, so they got 2 players that they believe will fit well with them. I'm not so sure, but I will concede that they need to win sooner rather than later.

It is going to be difficult to just straight compare these trades. Ingram, Harris and Barksdale should get full-time minutes right away. Vereen and Ridley will get situational snaps and Cannon may need the 2011 season to get into shape (cancer recovery and getting to his ideal weight). The 2012 picks will likely get fed into the Belichick circle of life so their impact may be too abstract to get a true value.

If the Saints or Raiders finish well below expectations this year, those trades swing heavily to the Pats. Otherwise I would say the everyone made out well in these deals.

Honestly i feel like we got a good deal out of the houston trade as this let us get Ridley and Cannon.

i think the NO deal is a Wash and was great for both teams.

Oakland's was slightly in their favor value wise but i just don't think BB wanted to make the picks in the 3rd and 4th, so like 2007 he traded out and up.

Bit of a side not but, someone on another thread made a good point if BJGE becomes a FA with the new deal, BB made quite a prudent move double dipping on the RB's as it stands we only have Woody on the roster. I think it's relevant because we were able to address RB while getting another 1st next year and 5th this year.

Don Kipines · Jun 21, 2011

It'll be interesting to see how many players end up gestating in the Mark Ingram circle of life. They turned the 2009 pick #89 (who ended up being tight end Jared Cook, picked by the Titans) into two 2010 players (Brandon Spikes and Zoltan Mesko) and one 2011 player (Ras-I Dowling). And that was a low third-rounder. You have to figure a first-round pick turns into at least three players and maybe four. What's the over/under on the year this trade ends up being completed? I'm saying 2013.

PatsFanStnfrd · Jun 21, 2011

Don Kipines said:
It'll be interesting to see how many players end up gestating in the Mark Ingram circle of life. They turned the 2009 pick #89 (who ended up being tight end Jared Cook, picked by the Titans) into two 2010 players (Brandon Spikes and Zoltan Mesko) and one 2011 player (Ras-I Dowling). And that was a low third-rounder. You have to figure a first-round pick turns into at least three players and maybe four. What's the over/under on the year this trade ends up being completed? I'm saying 2013.

Last year's # 89 to Carolina turned into this year's # 33 (Dowling). Not sure where/how you get Spikes and Mesko involved in this deal?

Oswlek · Jun 21, 2011

PatsFanStnfrd said:
Last year's # 89 to Carolina turned into this year's # 33 (Dowling). Not sure where/how you get Spikes and Mesko involved in this deal?

Last year's #89 was the 2010 #89. He is discussing the one from the year prior to that.

I made the same mistake with a few weeks back myself.

PatsFanStnfrd · Jun 21, 2011

jsull87 said:
3.) Oakland
Oak: #92 Joseph Barksdale ( solid OT prospect)
#125 Taiwan Jones (complementary RB to Bush and Mcfadden)
NE: 2012 # 2 (obviously BB didn't like these rounds too much and wanted that 2nd rounder again)

This deal was clearly one BB wanted, and for which he was willing to pay a high price (price that was higher than value charts/his own past record) We view Al Davis as someone whose pocket BB picks at will -- actually give Al Davis his due. He extracted a pound of flesh from BB in trading Burgess taking advantage of Pat's desperation at getting an edge-rusher. He also held firm this time.

Once again proving the adage, if the world knows you want something badly enough, you are going to have to pay for it.

Of course, how well this works out depends on the pick or trades next year. History will judge in due course.

Oswlek · Jun 21, 2011

PatsFanStnfrd said:
This deal was clearly one BB wanted, and for which he was willing to pay a high price (price that was higher than value charts/his own past record) We view Al Davis as someone whose pocket BB picks at will -- actually give Al Davis his due. He extracted a pound of flesh from BB in trading Burgess taking advantage of Pat's desperation at getting an edge-rusher. He also held firm this time.

Once again proving the adage, if the world knows you want something badly enough, you are going to have to pay for it.

Of course, how well this works out depends on the pick or trades next year. History will judge in due course.

BB didn't overpay, he just didn't get a sucker's deal like he did last year with Carolina. The two late picks in the 3rd and 4th round combine to equal a mid-round 3rd, which is a fair price for a mid to high 2nd the following season.

I do agree that Davis has won a few battles with BB, Burgess is one and Doug Gabriel is another. Still, I think BB has taken the larger win share between the two.

Metaphors · Jun 21, 2011

Don Kipines said:
You have to figure a first-round pick turns into at least three players and maybe four. What's the over/under on the year this trade ends up being completed? I'm saying 2013.

If you look at it from a holistic perspective, the trade may go on indefinitely. If the Pats take the NO pick next year but trade their own, technically the trade is complete. But in reality they were able to trade their own pick because they had an extra 1st...which is the result of the NO trade...which was likely only done because of the Seymour trade.

That is what makes most draft pick trades so tough to evaluate. The team that gets additional picks has the flexibility to make other tangential moves. It really is a butterfly effect.

PatsFaninME · Jun 22, 2011

jsull87 said:
Just something i had a look at then. I wanted to see the trades we made draft day and what we and the team we traded with got for those trades. i think this will be an interesting thing to keep a tab of during the season so see how it has worked out for both teams.

1. New Orleans

NO: #28: Mark Ingram (will probably start at RB for them & is cheaper then bush)
NE:#56: Shane Vareen (Will be interesting to see where he slots in and the impact he has on our offense)
2012 1st rounder (always makes our mock drafts more interesting)

2. Houston
Hou: #60 Brandon Harris (I'm sure they hope he contends for a starting CB spot)
NE: #73 Steven Ridley (Same ad Vareen for me i actually like how he runs)
#138 Marcus Cannon (alot of people think he is the steal of the draft and will start at RG for us eventually)

3.) Oakland
Oak: #92 Joseph Barksdale ( solid OT prospect)
#125 Taiwan Jones (complementary RB to Bush and Mcfadden)
NE: 2012 # 2 (obviously BB didn't like these rounds too much and wanted that 2nd rounder again)

I for one will be very interested to see how these trades turn out for both teams. I like the Houston trade already and will have to wait to 2012 to judge the other two properly.

I am a huge Patriots fan and generally like the trades that BB makes. Like most everyone else, I want an improved pass rush but I trust nobody more than BB to get that done. I don't buy into the theory that you have to draft a player in 1st round to "fix" a problem so I think BB has it just right.

Look at every draft in history and there are more busts that steals so generally if you're outside of the first 8-10 picks, there is extreme doubt so wy not increase numbers so you have better chance at finding a steal like Brady. The real genious with Brady, by the way, was BB and the coaches who realized his potential once he got into camp.

So back to the original point. I like the trades but honestly feel you must look at more than just the players taken in evaluating trades. Who might the Patriots got if they hadn't traded must be taken into consideration. Did Patriots get Ras-I Dowling but miss on player they thought would be there? Only that would allow us to truly analyze a draft trade.

jsull87 · Jun 22, 2011

PatsFaninME said:
I am a huge Patriots fan and generally like the trades that BB makes. Like most everyone else, I want an improved pass rush but I trust nobody more than BB to get that done. I don't buy into the theory that you have to draft a player in 1st round to "fix" a problem so I think BB has it just right.

Look at every draft in history and there are more busts that steals so generally if you're outside of the first 8-10 picks, there is extreme doubt so wy not increase numbers so you have better chance at finding a steal like Brady. The real genious with Brady, by the way, was BB and the coaches who realized his potential once he got into camp.

So back to the original point. I like the trades but honestly feel you must look at more than just the players taken in evaluating trades. Who might the Patriots got if they hadn't traded must be taken into consideration. Did Patriots get Ras-I Dowling but miss on player they thought would be there? Only that would allow us to truly analyze a draft trade.

I don't quite get your meaning here. Pats wanted to trade the Ras-I Pick but were also very happy as they said to pick him at 33. When looking at a trade all we can do when assessing the comparative value of the trade is to see what they gave up and what they got. They miss out on players every time they make a pick so i don't see how this comes into the equation as if they valued that player more they would have selected them.

ay-yo · Jun 22, 2011

I have no problem criticizing who we pick but think it's foolish to criticize the draft day trades Bill makes.

The game plan during a draft is to get a select few guys you want and do what it takes, within reason, to get them. With all the extra picks from previous trades we can move up and down the draft board and get our guy at a spot that maximizes value.

The draft day trades the last few years provide two HUGE benefits for us.

1. It allows us to maneuver the draft board better than any other team. By doing so we reduce the negative of over drafting while getting "our guy" more than the average team.

2. We get extra picks. We have selected more guys in the top 100 more than any other team by a pretty decent margin. How can anybody debate those results.

In conclusion we get extra picks and select the guys we want more compared to other teams. So debate who select but I can't understand how you could not see the benefits of the trades.

ctpatsfan77 · Jun 22, 2011

jsull87 said:
I don't quite get your meaning here. Pats wanted to trade the Ras-I Pick but were also very happy as they said to pick him at 33. When looking at a trade all we can do when assessing the comparative value of the trade is to see what they gave up and what they got. They miss out on players every time they make a pick so i don't see how this comes into the equation as if they valued that player more they would have selected them.

It's not so much that they "wanted" to trade, as they were willing to trade if teams met their price (a second next year, IIRC).

If they really preferred trading to Dowling, they would have settled for the best offer they got.

2011 Trade Comparison

jsull87

In the Starting Line-Up

Metaphors

In the Starting Line-Up

patchick

Moderatrix

SunnyDenmark

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

jsull87

In the Starting Line-Up

Don Kipines

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFanStnfrd

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

Oswlek

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

PatsFanStnfrd

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

Oswlek

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

Metaphors

In the Starting Line-Up

PatsFaninME

Practice Squad Player

jsull87

In the Starting Line-Up

ay-yo

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

ctpatsfan77

PatsFans.com Supporter

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