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Location: Central MA by way of the great state of New Hampshire
Posts: 7,378
Re: Manning to 49ers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
Or when you expect it to happen with less talent than he had when he didnt reach those numbers at age 36 after missing a year.
Take a long, hard look at that 2010 Colts offense, Andy. Clark went on IR week 7. Collie, Tamme, Blair White? I think Garcon is overrated but thats besides the point.Their running game was awful as PM had to throw 8000 times for them to even have a chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
First of all that isn't a career year, and secondly you totally missed the point...again.
The Wayne analogy was in response to your contention that a team interested in a player proves they will have a career year.
I got your point. My point is that when quality NFL personnel folks are looking a giving big money to a player, that means the player is immensely talented and they think that they can produce for their team. See Wayne/BB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
You are bringing them in as a Strwman.
Your argument is that Manning will be the same player he was 3 years ago despite his age, injury, lack of familiarity with his new team, and inactivity.
He won't be the same player, just like 1997 Elway wasn't 1987 Elway but I believe his production to be along those lines yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
You argue that this is true because 'football people' want him. This is an incorrect Strawman. The fact that teams are interested him only shows they want him as thier QB not that they believe he is the same QB he was 3 years ago.
I think the contract that he gets will disprove your theory. He will be paid close to Brady and Brees in value which states the production that they expect out of PM year 1.
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“I'm not really concerned about the other 31 teams,” - Bill Belichick
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Last edited by robertweathers; 03-17-2012 at 12:14 PM..
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Take a long, hard look at that 2010 Colts offense, Andy. Clark went on IR week 7. Collie, Tamme, Blair White? I think Garcon is overrated but thats besides the point.Their running game was awful as PM had to throw 8000 times for them to even have a chance.
Its not 2010, its a number he only achieved twice in his career.
Quote:
I got your point. My point is that when quality NFL personnel folks are looking a giving big money to a player, that means the player is immensely talented and they think that they can produce for their team. See Wayne/BB.
That does nothing to prove your point. Players get signed because they can help a team. Duh. That doesnt prove that because someone wants Manning they believe he is the same guy he was 3 years ago.
Quote:
He won't be the same player, just like 1997 Elway wasn't 1987 Elway but I believe his production to be along those lines yes.
What does that even mean? Understand you are saying you expect the 49er offense to be more effective than every offense Peyton Manning ever has run except for 1 season.
Quote:
I think the contract that he gets will disprove your theory. He will be paid close to Brady and Brees in value which states the production that they expect out of PM year 1.
Its not a theory. It is a fact that your argument that because they want him means he won't miss a beat is ridiculous. What they pay him is not a referendum on what they expect his production to be or that they expect him to not miss a beat, it is what it will take to sign him because he is the best FA QB on the market. There is a large gap between best FA QB on the market and what Manning was 3 years ago, just as there is a large gap between what he is today and what he was 3 years ago.
As I said, it is silly to debate, because you keep changing your argument and adding rhetorical commentary to overlook the fact that players who miss an entire season due to injury do not pick up where they left off and that aging players are not what they used to be.
Location: Central MA by way of the great state of New Hampshire
Posts: 7,378
Re: Manning to 49ers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
Its not 2010, its a number he only achieved twice in his career.
I'll accept your response as refusing to acknowledge that PM QB'ed a crap offense to 438 points at 34 years old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
That does nothing to prove your point. Players get signed because they can help a team. Duh. That doesnt prove that because someone wants Manning they believe he is the same guy he was 3 years ago.
Childish.
I think I've said a few times before that PM is not the same Qb he was in 2008. In the right situation with the right talent around him, he can still be outstanding. That is why teams are chasing him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
What does that even mean? Understand you are saying you expect the 49er offense to be more effective than every offense Peyton Manning ever has run except for 1 season.
Ok does it help my argument by saying the 49ers will score more than 416 points which is 36 more than the 49ers offense last year?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
Its not a theory. It is a fact that your argument that because they want him means he won't miss a beat is ridiculous. What they pay him is not a referendum on what they expect his production to be or that they expect him to not miss a beat, it is what it will take to sign him because he is the best FA QB on the market. There is a large gap between best FA QB on the market and what Manning was 3 years ago, just as there is a large gap between what he is today and what he was 3 years ago.
Wrong. If they didn't think he'd put up big numbers, they wouldn't sign him to big money. They may tweak the contract and mitigate their risk somehow but that will be proven out. Notice how Alex Smith has not been extended? It because they can't agree on a contract and the 49ers think Peyton will be better in their offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyJohnson
As I said, it is silly to debate, because you keep changing your argument and adding rhetorical commentary to overlook the fact that players who miss an entire season due to injury do not pick up where they left off and that aging players are not what they used to be.
I've changed nothing in my argument. I've been pretty consistent in saying PM will produce at a high-level with the 49ers and that I don't think a year layoff will be as major of a factor as you lay out. Will his timing be off in TC and some pre season games? Of course. With his timing still off for MAYBE the 1st couple of games he'll still put up very good numbers because he is a immensely talented QB.
Anyway, good debate. We have different views thats all. Go Pats!
I'll accept your response as refusing to acknowledge that PM QB'ed a crap offense to 438 points at 34 years old.
Childish.
I think I've said a few times before that PM is not the same Qb he was in 2008. In the right situation with the right talent around him, he can still be outstanding. That is why teams are chasing him.
Ok does it help my argument by saying the 49ers will score more than 416 points which is 36 more than the 49ers offense last year?
Wrong. If they didn't think he'd put up big numbers, they wouldn't sign him to big money. They may tweak the contract and mitigate their risk somehow but that will be proven out. Notice how Alex Smith has not been extended? It because they can't agree on a contract and the 49ers think Peyton will be better in their offense.
I've changed nothing in my argument. I've been pretty consistent in saying PM will produce at a high-level with the 49ers and that I don't think a year layoff will be as major of a factor as you lay out. Will his timing be off in TC and some pre season games? Of course. With his timing still off for MAYBE the 1st couple of games he'll still put up very good numbers because he is a immensely talented QB.
Anyway, good debate. We have different views thats all. Go Pats!
Given that you have moved on to the insultingly sarcastic and name calling portion of your argument, I will exit here.
Take a look at his 2010 numbers and look at that list again. Every one of those QBS was better last year than Manning was in 2010. Now you're adding on a year off and the injury.
2010 was a rough year for him- they couldn't run the ball, the defense wasn't any good, and his receivers were in and out of the lineup with injuries. After Manning, that may have been the least talented team in the league, accounting for injuries. Assuming that he's in good health, I'd be surprised if he doesn't surpass those numbers this year, even with the year off and a new team, simply by virtue of having a half-decent team around him.
I agree with your assessment. You really have to scrutinize the lineup from 2010 to see how wonderful a job Manning did with one of the least talented teams of his Colts tenure. I have no doubt he will be a huge upgrade over any of the incumbent Titans, Niners, or Broncos QBs.
I agree with your assessment. You really have to scrutinize the lineup from 2010 to see how wonderful a job Manning did with one of the least talented teams of his Colts tenure. I have no doubt he will be a huge upgrade over any of the incumbent Titans, Niners, or Broncos QBs.
It's a given he will be that even at 80%. And I wouldn't be surprised if offensive numbers don't slip back to pre lockout levels since defenses were more impacted by the lack of FA and teaching/coaching that the lockout represented across the board. I also don't expect that it will be a cake walk for Manning on any new team out of the gate because he is a perfectionist and his frustration with that 2010 Colts team at times was palpable.
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Re: Manning to 49ers?
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