Patriot Missile

Yeah, he was the one being blatantly held from behind on the should been holding/or could of been sack play that would of sealed the win.

IllegalContact

its all about ROI once a player is deemed to be on his way

it's not about whether or not the pats should have moved seymour. It's about whether it was the best time to move him and was the ROI a sound move.

I understand making the move, and I think the compensation was pretty good.

but it is a fact that this team has still not recovered defensively from the removal of seymour and warren on consecutive years. was it because of them? well, it forced the team away from the 3-4 which I do not believe was what BB wanted

dominant 3-4 DE's aren't a dime a dozen

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“ I think good coaches will coach with the personnel they have, and if you only have one (good) linebacker, you’re not going to play a 3–4. ”
—Hank Bullough, who installed one of the first 3–4 defenses with the New England Patriots.

SeymourTrophies

At the time of the trade, I was livid because telling Jarvis Green to do Seymour's job was giving up on the defense for that year. I got the trade value aspect, and I'm happy with that now. At the time, I was not okay with essentially giving up on the defense for that season because, as a fan, you don't want to hear that a season is going to be a waste while it's going on.

To be better in the trenches in the immediate future in a season where we wouldn't have done much anyway was not as crucial as having a rock in the middle of the line tied down for years to come, the A Football Life bit on BB had a scene where Kraft talked about how trading Seymour freed up money for Vince. I get it. I just wasn't happy to know I was watching a season that was given up on early.

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Forza Roma, Go Pats, Go Sox

51Hits

Recovered from what?

When they had Seymour and Warren from 03-09. (might be off a year) the defense was mediocre/awful between 05-09 (07 the offense certainly masked the D)

I think the defense is better this year than its been in years simply because the front 7 has improved. Jones looks amazing, Kyle Love has proven to be a good player, hell Cunningham has had a bit of a coming out party even.

51Hits

Are you sure asking Green to step up for Seymour for one year was really giving up? Green stepped up bigtime when Seymour went down in 04. Didn't he have a good post season for us in 03 as well? BB was counting on a player for one season that stepped up a few times before. Our pass rush was just as bad in 09 as it was in 08 WITH Seymour. Granted our run D suffered without him, but I'll trade a good run defender anyday for a first round pick. JMO anyway

BradyFTW!

None of this addresses any of the points that I made. Good work destroying the straw man that you created, though. Expertly done.

rookBoston

Seymour is not what's wrong with the Raiders D. The premise of the thread is sketchy.

In the structure of the trade, the value for the Raiders was in the first years after the trade. The value for the Pats was back loaded because the pick was deferred for 2 years. At the time of the trade, Pats fans were pulling their hair out because the roster had a hole, and nothing to point to as fair value in exchange. As time passes, it feels better for us because we have Solder on the field and improving every week. And the Raiders fans are pulling their hair out because Seymour is in his decline, the upside is behind them, and they're doing the woulda, shoulda, coulda game. Pretty predictable.

I do think the Seymour trade is an example of Belichick at his best as a GM, deriving top value from an impossible situation, where he had more elite talent than he could afford to keep under the cap.

But, as with any good trade, it was fair value for the Raiders too. They were horrible, but most importantly, they had a losing team culture. Bringing someone like Seymour in from a winning franchise was as much for his on-field play as his locker room influence.

The fact that the Raiders D has not improved is not something you can hang on any single DT. I think you have to hang that on their front office. Stupid of Raiders fans to think that one trade, no matter how bad they think it was, is the lynchpin of their crappiness.

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"We want to build a big, strong, tough, smart, fast, disciplined football team that will consistently compete for a championship."
-- Scott Pioli, from the Patriots scouting manual

SeymourTrophies

I think the masses were optimistic at the time that Green could hold his own on 1st and 2nd down and contribute more on passing downs. I didn't think Green was going to be sufficient; I was right once in a row. In the end, Green sucked and that was partly because he was hurt. Green was a situational player, but we lost his ability to step up in that passing down role because he was worn down from the increased workload. There's plenty of reason to believe BB thought Green could contribute more in the passing game without conceding too much in the run, but it didn't work that way.

To beat an already long dead horse, Seymour gave up an average of a whole yard less on his side in the run game than in the middle or the other side and had a career high amount of sacks in 08. The Ravens ran all over Green in the playoffs and I cursed that trade multiple times. The pass rush absolutely sucked with and without Seymour, but that's not really a biss hoss's job.

The trade was the right decision, largely because the deal Seymour signed with the Raiders was ridiculous. We got Solder out of it, so I'm happy. I just wasn't crazy about what I viewed as conceding defeat on the defensive side of the ball, though it's not like one run-stuffing 3-4 end was going to save all of the issues that defense had. It's just not something a fan in the heat of the moment is going to be happy about.

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Forza Roma, Go Pats, Go Sox

patfanken

Another point that has to be made in this Seymour thread was the fact that there was a good chance that when his contract ran out no amount of money was going to get Seymour to stay. Well that might be a bit of hyperbole, but he certainly wasn't going to take a "hometown discount". Quite the opposite the Pats might have had to play MORE to keep him. So when you add in who they they couldn't keep if they managed to keep Seymour. His injury situation, and seemingly deteriorating play. Trading him and getting a #1 pick was a huge win.

The fact is that NO player is really worth top 3 money, with the exception perhaps of a QB. Its almost impossible for a player to play to the value of those huge contracts. And its not just examples like Chris Johnson that are cautionary. Just look right at home to Logan Mankins. Its not like he isn't still a great OG, but has be played like he's the best these last 2 years? I don't think so.

So when you get into these situations like Seymour and now Welker, your heart might want to say yes yes yes, but history is pretty conclusive that you'd better say no. The sad fact is that although it might seem improbable right now, its more likely than not, that both Gronk and Hernandez will be viewed at some point in their contract as being vastly overpaid as injury and age erode their skills

That's why I don't understand the constant yammering of the "pay them" crowd, when history has so often proved that "paying them what the want" simply doesn't work.

satz

Disagree , I know he brought 2 plots in the development and was just finishing this monster house spanning 2 lots in the development. He was moving himself and some of this family from the carolina`s permanently [The reason he would miss some offseason workouts to be with his extended family]. That house went for sale as soon as it was finished as he went to oakland. I can argue he would taken less.

All along he wanted to play in a attacking DT in a 4-3, i sometimes wonder how good he will be next to vince as the other tackle.Not a knock on love but sey had twice 8 sacks for a 3-4 DT in 04 and 07 .he was a special player. He brought attitude a mean streak on the DL that we have missed.
in some game he would just smack the OL around and dominate .We have seen that till vince took brick to the woodshed in last year playoff here against ravans. seymour did that alot more.

as far as solder goes we could always traded one or 2 picks we used to select all the 2nd round super picks which we seem to make .

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