Do you wish the Patriots challenged Goodell (like the Saints are doing)? - Page 14 - New England Patriots Forums

***BradyFTW!*** · 07-06-2012, 04:27 AM

While I agree with the last couple of posts in that pherein has kinda gone off the rails at this point, at the same time I think we can all remember what the immediate aftermath of Spygate was like. When pretty much the entire NFL, including the league office itself, is seemingly against you, it's hard to retain perspective. I know that a whole lot of us failed at it, and if you want to go and look through the Patsfans archives for threads made throughout the 2007 season, that will confirm it.

At least in our case the ****storm happened after the season started, so we had 16 more weeks of football, the playoffs, and an undefeated season to distract us.

NYCPatsFan · 07-06-2012, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoLewisrocks

These players have chosen to be pawns in a backstory that underscores the disconnect between the NFLPA and the league about power that was traded for money that seemingly hasn't materialized. A strategy that for a time allows them to both to publicly unite as victims rather than face potentially being publicly labeled as total screw ups...

Just makes me prouder than ever of the way this organization has chosen to handle their business with the league, from the top down. Accountability isn't just paid lip service here, which is why it works here. And why teams like the Saints will never really be like the Patriots, no matter how much an admirer like pherien wants to believe they are. Robert Kraft certainly saw something in Goodell that resonated with him, leading him to champion him as a concensus candidate to replace the lawyer commissioner Tagliabue. Kind of like Tagliabue's predecessor, former Rams PR man turned GM, Roselle, who built the present day NFL model that resulted in league that is the envy of all others despite extensive ties to one team. Kind of makes Goodell's year as a JETS PR gopher, although I believe he grew up a Giants fan... pale in comparison. Really smart people get ahead because they can compartmentalize that stuff.

When Wilfork was fined and felt he was being misrepresented as a dirty player, he and Bianca (who bills less than Vilma's lawyer with the losing track record) attended his appeal and presented his case and got his fine reduced while also admitting that he had made some mistakes in letting his temper get the better of him and he was going to work on that. And he hasn't poked anyone in the eye since... When Rodney's name appeared on some HgH purveyors billing records he came clean rather than file suit in hopes of injunctively postponing any potential penalty until his playing days were over. When Bill got caught doing something the league clearly didn't want teams doing, even though lots of teams were, he and Robert apologized and paid their penalties and moved on. Even though a segment of their own fan base apparently never will.

Goodell is all about the carrot and the stick. Even though he takes it personally when players or owners or coaches attempt to put self interest above the best interests of the game or the league. I think he's a lot like Belichick in that he has the courage of his convictions and he doesn't loose sleep over public perceptions or opinions. He was elected to change a culture and clean up what was becoming a messy image and a potential failing business model as his predecessor and De's increasingly fell victim to the desire to protect or re-frame their personal legacies.

The owners just extended his term and doubled his salary, so they must be on board with his approach. The smart ones wanted an authority figure as commissioner who would not only grow the game and clean up it's image but one who would discipline anyone - including rogue owners or FO's or coaches as well as players - who threatened either. And that is exactly who and what they got. He takes the heat for the tough decisions allowing them to maintain civil relationships with their partners, employees and fans. That's why he makes the big bucks. Still trying to figure out why De does...because he's failed his constituents miserably.

Unswayed Goodell gives nary an inch to counterattacking players - NFL - CBSSports.com News, Rumors, Scores, Stats, Fantasy

Fine post Mo.

On that highlighted portion: truth is that there is a segment of the ENTIRE fanbase, not just the Patsfans, who refuse to move on.

But then 'move-on' from what?

I think all have moved-on from the camera-gate incident.

It is a question of how you label the incident that is causing this soreness even after the passage of time. If you consider breaking the rule as cheating, the Pats are cheats. If no, you are either a Pats fan or knowlegable NFL fan. (And for the record, I cringe when many in this fanbase happily use the word 'spy', which unconciously puts us in a negative light.

)

Fall out of this camera-gate scandal is that outside of NE, a good % of the fans will always think that the Patriots cheated. They have also moved on, but will never change their conclusion that the Pats cheated.

I think I have also 'moved on' by ignoring such taunts when I am in the bars here in the NY/NJ area.

But heck, I wish Mr. Kraft and BB at least protested instead of silently accepting such a costly fine that clearly convicted them in the eyes of the public.

tuckeverlasting · 07-07-2012, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tobias Reiper

Geez...
Yes, technically you can get a murder conviction without a dead body. But unless you are in North Korea, you cannot get a murder conviction when the alleged murder victim is standing next to you alive... which seems to be the point that falls on deaf ears where non-NO fans are concerned. And unlike a murder case where there is no body and someone is just not there, there is actually video of every game the Saints have played in... you guys are familiar with video tape, no?

And yes, you can get a conviction on conspiracy to commit murder, but we are not talking about a conspiracy here. According to the NFL the Saints actually committed the crimes and bounties were paid after the commission of of said crime -that's how "bounties" work, no? you get paid AFTER you do the deed. I mean, now you are going to tell me the NFL issued (combined) 30-game suspension, 12-15 million dollars in fines/lost wages, and just about ended the career of one player because they "talked about it"? No. The NFL was very clear in their allegations that bounties were paid for hurting players, even if the NFL is now crawfishing and saying things like "result of legal hit was the player didn't return to the game".

As for Cerullo and his involvement in this, that's no conspiracy theory. It was almost a certainty he was involved in this, now it has been confirmed and validated.

yeah, every nfl game has been taped from every angle imaginable for the past 40 or so years. what we're not familiar with is trying to send the other teams players out on a stretcher and getting a little side money for it. this ain't rollerball.

rfournier103 · 07-07-2012, 12:17 PM

No way. Here's my take on it...

The NFL and the Krafts wanted this to GO AWAY. There's no way the NFL could not penalize the Patriots; so they did. Harshly. A total of $750.000 and a draft pick isn't peanuts.

The evidence was destroyed by the NFL so NO ONE would ever see it again. Why? Because the NFL, as all major leagues, gets it's legitimacy from the fans knowing that the games are on the level, and the outcomes are not predetermined. If anything contradicting that were ever to surface, imagine the outcry. Lawsuits from fans. People would stop watching. The NFL could NOT allow that to happen. Even the suggestion that one team had an unfair advantage over the other 31 makes the NFL cringe.

I do think that there was some advantage to be gained. Otherwise, why would Belichick do the taping? That man does nothing without a reason. I have no idea how much of an advantage it was, but there had to be something.

I think the Patriots got off as easilly as they did was because they fully co-operated with Goodell, and gave up everything they had. No one lied (as far as we know) and tried to cover it up. No one obstructed the investigation, and EVERYONE kept their mouths shut afterward.

Belichick could very easily have been suspended or even expelled from the NFL. Instead, the Pats went 18-1 and won the AFC Championship. The Pats did ok. They didn't fight it and it could have been alot worse. Look at the Saints... I guarantee they won't go 18-1.

***PatsWickedPissah*** · 07-07-2012, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rfournier103

No way. Here's my take on it...

The NFL and the Krafts wanted this to GO AWAY. There's no way the NFL could not penalize the Patriots; so they did. Harshly. A total of $750.000 and a draft pick isn't peanuts.

The evidence was destroyed by the NFL so NO ONE would ever see it again. Why? Because the NFL, as all major leagues, gets it's legitimacy from the fans knowing that the games are on the level, and the outcomes are not predetermined. If anything contradicting that were ever to surface, imagine the outcry. Lawsuits from fans. People would stop watching. The NFL could NOT allow that to happen. Even the suggestion that one team had an unfair advantage over the other 31 makes the NFL cringe.

I do think that there was some advantage to be gained. Otherwise, why would Belichick do the taping? That man does nothing without a reason. I have no idea how much of an advantage it was, but there had to be something.

I think the Patriots got off as easilly as they did was because they fully co-operated with Goodell, and gave up everything they had. No one lied (as far as we know) and tried to cover it up. No one obstructed the investigation, and EVERYONE kept their mouths shut afterward.

Belichick could very easily have been suspended or even expelled from the NFL. Instead, the Pats went 18-1 and won the AFC Championship. The Pats did ok. They didn't fight it and it could have been alot worse. Look at the Saints... I guarantee they won't go 18-1.

The Patriots were not the only team taping. The offense was taping from a proscribed area. And the (false) perception was that the video was used during the game.

Why would BB have been suspended or expelled from the league for disallowed video camera placement? The mind boggles.

flasox27 · 07-07-2012, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rfournier103

No way. Here's my take on it...

The NFL and the Krafts wanted this to GO AWAY. There's no way the NFL could not penalize the Patriots; so they did. Harshly. A total of $750.000 and a draft pick isn't peanuts.

The evidence was destroyed by the NFL so NO ONE would ever see it again. Why? Because the NFL, as all major leagues, gets it's legitimacy from the fans knowing that the games are on the level, and the outcomes are not predetermined. If anything contradicting that were ever to surface, imagine the outcry. Lawsuits from fans. People would stop watching. The NFL could NOT allow that to happen. Even the suggestion that one team had an unfair advantage over the other 31 makes the NFL cringe.

I do think that there was some advantage to be gained. Otherwise, why would Belichick do the taping? That man does nothing without a reason. I have no idea how much of an advantage it was, but there had to be something.

I think the Patriots got off as easilly as they did was because they fully co-operated with Goodell, and gave up everything they had. No one lied (as far as we know) and tried to cover it up. No one obstructed the investigation, and EVERYONE kept their mouths shut afterward.

Belichick could very easily have been suspended or even expelled from the NFL. Instead, the Pats went 18-1 and won the AFC Championship. The Pats did ok. They didn't fight it and it could have been alot worse. Look at the Saints... I guarantee they won't go 18-1.

I am amazed by the Goodell apologists who lack the historical perspective of the filming but continue to lay the sole blame on the Pats without acknowledging how the gross incompetance if not bias of Goodell was the prime cause of the incident. Goodell was aware of the Jets filming the Pats in the prior year after having issued his so called edict but neither he nor the Pats did anything about it. However he apparently conspired with his former employers, the Jets to make a federal case out of the Pats doing the same thing in order to establish his authority and coincidently damage the reputation and viability of the Jets main rival. He penalized the Pats much more severely than any rules violation of the past. Then he leaked the films to Fox TV to further embarass the Pats before destroying the remaining films. Given his actions only the most gullible sap would believe that the films were destroyed to protect the Pats rather than prove that other teams were captured filming the Pats.
Perhaps next time you think the Pats got off easily, you might want to consider the laughable penalties that Goodell's beloved Jets received for tripping the ball player during a game.
Of course, I might be have misjudged you and you are really a Jets/Goodell fan who has stumbled on to the wrong site. In that case, try posting on Gang Green where you will find a receptive audience.

***Joker*** · 07-07-2012, 02:42 PM

"Never in a million years did I expect it to play out like this," Mangini said. "This is one of those situations where I didn't want them to do the things they were doing. I didn't think it was any kind of significant advantage, but I wasn't going to give them the convenience of doing it in our stadium, and I wanted to shut it down. But there was no intent to get the league involved. There was no intent to have the landslide that it has become."

Eric Mangini regrets turning in Patriots for 'Spygate'

The Jets were caught videotaping at Gillette Stadium last season and the Patriots had that New York employee removed from the area, according to published reports Wednesday. Jets coach Eric Mangini said his team received permission to film behind both end zones during the playoff game in January.

"We taped the game is what we taped, and we taped end-zone copy of the game, and we tape a double-end zone, which is standard operating procedure for us," Mangini said Wednesday. "We request that every single road game, and it's usually granted if physically it's possible. And when people request it from us, we do the same thing: We grant it."

Jets videotaped Patriots last season in Foxborough - NFL - ESPN

I do think that there was some advantage to be gained. Otherwise, why would Belichick do the taping? That man does nothing without a reason. I have no idea how much of an advantage it was, but there had to be something.

but "that man" Mangini wasn't filming for the same reason? All the other teams and their head coaches are different than "that man!!!"? Sounds like you have a very judgmental bias against Bill Belichick and want to see him punished further and ruined. I'd post the thousands of vicious diatribes aimed at Bill by disgruntled Jet fans when he turned down the head coach position there and opted out for the Patriots job, but that wouldn't change the unreasoning hatred still seething in the minds of Jet fans...the same Jet fans who embrace open degeneracy, deviance ,in game documented cheating, drunken assistant coach lying to the media slandering the Patriots, and unbridled gluttony the likes of which has NEVER been seen in any major pro sports venue in history.Of course,acts such as these are not of any consequence whatsoever, as Goodell's actions prove....it's just Belichick, who's real real lucky he's even allowed to work in the league anymore.

tuckeverlasting · 07-07-2012, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rfournier103

No way. Here's my take on it...

The NFL and the Krafts wanted this to GO AWAY. There's no way the NFL could not penalize the Patriots; so they did. Harshly. A total of $750.000 and a draft pick isn't peanuts.

The evidence was destroyed by the NFL so NO ONE would ever see it again. Why? Because the NFL, as all major leagues, gets it's legitimacy from the fans knowing that the games are on the level, and the outcomes are not predetermined. If anything contradicting that were ever to surface, imagine the outcry. Lawsuits from fans. People would stop watching. The NFL could NOT allow that to happen. Even the suggestion that one team had an unfair advantage over the other 31 makes the NFL cringe.

I do think that there was some advantage to be gained. Otherwise, why would Belichick do the taping? That man does nothing without a reason. I have no idea how much of an advantage it was, but there had to be something.

I think the Patriots got off as easilly as they did was because they fully co-operated with Goodell, and gave up everything they had. No one lied (as far as we know) and tried to cover it up. No one obstructed the investigation, and EVERYONE kept their mouths shut afterward.

Belichick could very easily have been suspended or even expelled from the NFL. Instead, the Pats went 18-1 and won the AFC Championship. The Pats did ok. They didn't fight it and it could have been alot worse. Look at the Saints... I guarantee they won't go 18-1.

what was the advantage ? i have not seen one so called expert analyze and explain how the tapes could be used. that's because every expert knows that teams change their signals constantly. even my high school team changed our defensive signals at halftime. and they've had a better record since they went back to taping from where goodell says it's ok. much ado about nothing.

***MoLewisrocks*** · 07-07-2012, 03:17 PM

I'm amazed at the number of folks who with the benefit of hindsight still lack all perspective where all these issues are concerned. Although it shouldn't surprise me since to this day many of Vick's supporters still play the dogs vs. manslaughter card although he himself move past that long ago. Goodell makes examples of guys or organization who walk right into it in the hopes of once and for all putting a stop to a culture that thinks it's above the game because historically it's gotten off easy. He is determined to get out in front of potential issues that he doesn't want the courts or congress or even the media poking sticks into incessantly to the detriment of the image of the NFL.

Belichick made a rare mistake. Not that he was doing with his tapes what others were said to be attempting to let alone what idiots in the media or jealous fanbases continue to elude to. In fact he admitted that what he did was just for convenience and really a low priority task. But he persisted because he felt he could justify it if need be by playing semantic games (smartest guy in the room syndrome) before he got caught in a very public way that left Goodell little choice but to over react in fear that it could have be worse not to mention to do otherwise would have undermined his fledgling authority. People forget how the media and some of Bill's legion of critics including frustrated peers were lobbying for a suspension.

Goodell has his hands full with the litigious NFLPA and it's members. That was his first and last warning shot across the bow of FO's and coaches. Quit screwing around because you believe you can get away with it. Next one who defies me... And lo and behold just 2 years later someone else took the bait. And to top it off, they lied after receiving fair warning and just kept doing it for 2 more seasons. Pay for performance may have been part of the old boy culture of the NFL. But it's been against the rules since the salary cap was adopted 2 decades ago. And every season teams and players get a reminder from the league that it is. It's almost impossible to police when player run because players won't rat each other out. Then he catches one team violating the rules whose own coaching staff is participating and using terms like bounty and kill shots and cart offs at a time when the league is being sued by hundreds of former players who claim their safety was jeopardized by the league... and they are lucky he opted to limit the penalties to those he did.

It's kind of pathetic that a numbskull like Vick gets it while so many other supposedly bright folks simply can't. Some in NO are atttempting the semantic defense. Bill and Robert were smart enough to know better than to waste time, energy and effort on it. They opted to man up and be accountable and take their lumps, learn from their mistake and just move on. Why anyone would wish they had behaved like a bunch of alternately defiant and whining self absorbed jerks like the Saints is beyond me. There is nothing to be gained in that effort beyond generating a small fortune in billable hours for the lawyers. And we all know how Robert feels about lawyers...

The Patriots make mistakes but they learn from them and they are too smart to waste their time, energy and effort fighting a losing battle when the right thing to do anyway is simply man up, be accountable, take your lumps and move on.

flasox27 · 07-07-2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoLewisrocks

I'm amazed at the number of folks who with the benefit of hindsight still lack all perspective where all these issues are concerned. Although it shouldn't surprise me since to this day many of Vick's supporters still play the dogs vs. manslaughter card although he himself move past that long ago. Goodell makes examples of guys or organization who walk right into it in the hopes of once and for all putting a stop to a culture that thinks it's above the game because historically it's gotten off easy. He is determined to get out in front of potential issues that he doesn't want the courts or congress or even the media poking sticks into incessantly to the detriment of the image of the NFL.

Belichick made a rare mistake. Not that he was doing with his tapes what others were said to be attempting to let alone what idiots in the media or jealous fanbases continue to elude to. In fact he admitted that what he did was just for convenience and really a low priority task. But he persisted because he felt he could justify it if need be by playing semantic games (smartest guy in the room syndrome) before he got caught in a very public way that left Goodell little choice but to over react in fear that it could have be worse not to mention to do otherwise would have undermined his fledgling authority. People forget how the media and some of Bill's legion of critics including frustrated peers were lobbying for a suspension.

Goodell has his hands full with the litigious NFLPA and it's members. That was his first and last warning shot across the bow of FO's and coaches. Quit screwing around because you believe you can get away with it. Next one who defies me... And lo and behold just 2 years later someone else took the bait. And to top it off, they lied after receiving fair warning and just kept doing it for 2 more seasons. Pay for performance may have been part of the old boy culture of the NFL. But it's been against the rules since the salary cap was adopted 2 decades ago. And every season teams and players get a reminder from the league that it is. It's almost impossible to police when player run because players won't rat each other out. Then he catches one team violating the rules whose own coaching staff is participating and using terms like bounty and kill shots and cart offs at a time when the league is being sued by hundreds of former players who claim their safety was jeopardized by the league... and they are lucky he opted to limit the penalties to those he did.

It's kind of pathetic that a numbskull like Vick gets it while so many other supposedly bright folks simply can't. Some in NO are atttempting the semantic defense. Bill and Robert were smart enough to know better than to waste time, energy and effort on it. They opted to man up and be accountable and take their lumps, learn from their mistake and just move on. Why anyone would wish they had behaved like a bunch of alternately defiant and whining self absorbed jerks like the Saints is beyond me. There is nothing to be gained in that effort beyond generating a small fortune in billable hours for the lawyers. And we all know how Robert feels about lawyers...

The Patriots make mistakes but they learn from them and they are too smart to waste their time, energy and effort fighting a losing battle when the right thing to do anyway is simply man up, be accountable, take your lumps and move on.

I don't dispute that the Pats violated a rule and should have been punished. What I will never agree to is that the punishment was fair and unbiased either in view of prior penalties meted to the 49ers and Broncos and subsequently to the Jets for tripping. Too bad Kraft felt that he was forced to support the biased POS for the good of the League rather than stand up for his team. I am still waiting for Goodell to finish his promised investigation of how the tapes were leaked during his possession. LOL I also find it amusing how the remaining tapes were destroyed after consultation with Rooney. Since the Pats were already convicted by the POS, why did they need to be destroyed if not for disclosing the how common the practice was and that Goodell would be forced to punish other teams especially the Jets.