A Bills fan's take on "Cameragate" - New England Patriots Forums

***shiva2999*** · 09-19-2007, 05:11 PM

Hey guys, I'm shiva2999 from the #1 Bills forum on the web, www.buffalorange.com, and I'm issuing a personal invitation to any Pats fan that wants to come over and discuss football. I have notified the board that I've become a member here and invited all of my compatriots to come over here and do the same thing. How many will take their man pills and show up is yet to be seen.

be that as it may, if you come over you will see that I have become a virtual pariah with my comrades because I have been defending Belichick and the Pats since this little piece of hilarity broke because you have been getting a raw deal.

Most Bills fans hate me for this because they'd rather wallow in "Belicheat, Belisucks, Belijerk etc" type nonsense and accuse me of being, gasp, a "bad Bills fan".

Big deal. They've been calling me that for years because I've been warning them for years about Rob Johnson/Drew Bledsoe/JP Losman and various other Bills stupidities.

And since I've been right, they hate me even more.

But so what.

So even though I've spit out thousands of words trying to explain the Cameragate hilarity to them, they just refuse to get it so I thought maybe I could come over here and get some intelligent reactions.

But before I start let me digress and give you my bona fides for what they're worth, just so you know where I'm coming from.

I am an almost 50 year NFL fan, since I first watched Jimmy Brown play for Cleveland on my parents little B&W TV.

I have also been a Bills fan since their inception in the AFL.

I have watched thousands of pro football games in my life and every NFL championship since the late 50s, AFL championships since the early 60s and every Superbowl since #1.

So I am old school (with a young outlook

).

And as such, although i have my favorite teams, I am not the new type of fan that insists you must hate and denigrate all your opponents.

I admire class and talent and balls.

I was a fan of Bart Starr's Packers, Bob Griese's Dolphins, Terry Bradshaw's steelers, Joe Montana's 49ers, Joe Gibb's Redskins and I am not ashamed to admit I am a fan of Bill Belichick and Tom Brady's Patriots.

Plus, although I never worked in the football business, I have worked in the film and TV and advertising businesses for 30 years running film crews, a job that is analogous in a lot of ways with coaching a football team.

So I know a little about how to run groups of 60 - 150 highly paid free agents to try and achieve a common goal.

And in my opinion, the Patriots do it just right.

That being done with, I thought I would post some of the most relevant things I've said about the situation, not because i want to toot my own horn, but because I think you'd enjoy what I had to say.

but before I start, I'll outline my position so you know what my most important points are.

1. Trying to crack another teams signals is a long and honored NFL tradition. Part of the game.

2. When BB or whoever gave BB the idea of using video to compile a database of coaching signals was first proposed and implemented, it WASN'T against the rules, nor was it in anyway unethical. 31 other teams were free to do the same thing.

3. The Patriots won 3 superbowls being smarter and better than everyone else and Eric Mangini was in like a dirty shirt. I don't see him offering to send his three rings back.

4. Belichick MADE Mangini's career.

5. The Jets hired Mangini specifically to get the lowdown on the Pats organization.

6. Bob Kraft supported Roger Goodell in his career and promoted him for the Commissioner's job.

7. When Mangini went to the Jets and started spreading the word that Belichick had a magic database that predicted every coaching call from now to the Rapture, the other teams **** their pants and started lobbying to get a rule stopping the Pats put in place.

8. Goodell could have done the honorable thing and told the other teams to pound sand, but realizing that 31 outvote 1, decided to screw a man that had always been kind and supportive of him to placate the losers and whiners of the league.

9. So Mangini betrayed Belichick and Goodell betrayed Kraft by inventing the no videotaping coaches rule. And Belichick and Kraft, not being the type of guys who let people screw with them, decided to fight back.

10. Thus they decided to stage the little dog and pony show at the Meadowlands. They DID IT ON PURPOSE!

Why?

1. To make a point to Goodell and the league that they are willing to defend their intellectual property (coaching and scouting strategies). And this defense includes a willingness to compromise their own reputations to embarrass Goodell and the league. Who cares about tarnished rings. This is war.

2. To ruin Mangini's career and destroy the Jets' season.

3. To provide the BEST ever motivation for the team to fight like rabid wolverines to their 4th Superbowl title.

And so far, everything has worked perfectly.

Remember, when people that have been proved clever time and again do something that looks stupid to the general onlooker, you can be sure there is something else going on.

And Belichick and Kraft are definitely not stupid guys.

They trotted Estrella out into the open and had him prance around for a reason.

They wanted to FORCE Mangini and the league to bust them.

They wanted this battle, to draw this line in the sand.

And everything that's happened in the meantime has only verified my initial opinion.

Bill Belichick and Bob Kraft are not the cheaters here.

Eric Mangini, Woody Johnson, Roger Goodell and the rest of the losers who couldn't compete on a level playing field were.

Colluding to outlaw an advantage fairly won is cheating, pure and simple.

That is why BB and Kraft decide to call everyone out.

Anyway, here are the two things I posted first about the situation that has made me Public Enemy #1 in Buffalo. Others will follow.

And good luck on Sunday. I'll be rooting for the Bills and praying for a miracle that proves JP Losman isn't Rob Johnson Jr.

9/11/2007

Newest Pats outrage - Belichick hires Kreskin and Criss Angel, NFL to investigate

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiva2999

Does Bill Belichick's evil know no bounds?

http://mountainofmolehills.com

ESPN - New England

PATRIOTS HIRE MENTALIST AND MAGICIAN AMONG SWIRLING ACCUSATIONS OF CHEATING

by Chris "the fink" Mortenson

In a surprise move today by the New England Patriots, Bill Belichick has announced that he has hired famed mentalist Kreskin to predict their opponents game plans and plays and has also retained rock star magician Criss Angell to teach Tom Brady magic and sleight of hand.

The hiring comes one day after accusations of cheating were leveled at the 3 time Superbowl champions by franchises that are defined by their losing seasons.

This is widely seen as a big "**** YOU!" to all the team's whining haters.

Belichick said to a hastily assembled press conference "I read the rule book and it says nothing about clairvoyance or pulling rabbits out of a hat. So go ahead and cry about this one *****es!"

But sources say that the NFL was immediately complained to by a bunch of snivelling franchises that bellyached "It's just not fair!"

The source went on to say that Roger Goodell, NFL commisioner, was on the verge of ordering Kreskin and Angell locked in a box and sent to NFL headquarters for interrogation.

There is also speculation that if this happens, the two may not be in the box when the commissioner opens it.

...more...

and... (split for length)

***shiva2999*** · 09-19-2007, 05:12 PM

(following above)

9/14/2007

Is this cheating?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiva2999

Since I realize you guys have been in a blood lust the past few days, I know full well what I've been saying about this hilarious videogate battle between Bob Kraft, Bill Belichick, Eric Mangini and the league hasn't sunk in for most guys because they just don't want to hear it.

IMO, it's the same sort of mob behaviour that brought you the Iraq war.

So, be that as it may, I think we should all take a step back and look at a first principles scenario.

Imagine, if you will, that you are a head coach in the early seventies, when having individual D coordinators had become league wide. You line up for a game against some team and play the first half.

As you take a well deserved smoke break, one of your junior assistants, Sparky McHarvard, comes up to you and says "Coach, I've been watching the other coaches and I've noticed something. I think I can tell what plays are being called."

So this puts you in your first ethical conundrum. If the kid can tell what the other team is calling, should you hear it? Is being able to tell what the other side is calling just by looking at them cheating?

Hmmmmm.

So you say, "uh, what the **** are you talking about McHarvard?"

McHarvard puts on his glasses (technology), grabs his pen and notepad (technology) and says, "I made notes about what the D coordinator was signaling on the sideline, and everytime he took off his hat and wiped his brow, they went man to man. When he picked his nose, they always went zone. And when he scratched his ass, they blitzed. Here, I have it all down on paper."

Sparky shows you his notes and damn, if he isn't right.

So then, you're presented with your second and defining conundrum.

Do you say to yourself "I can't use this information. That would be cheating"?

Do you tell Sparky to burn his notes and get his miserable weasel-esque ass out of your sight?

Or do you say "Thanks McHarvard, from now on it's your job to do this every game" and then go into the dressing room, grab your qb and tell him "watch the other guys D coordinator. When he takes off his hat it's man to man, when he picks his nose it's zone, and when he scratches his ass it's a blitz"?

If you go the first route, you get to stand on the sideline watching plays you know are coming but your team doesn't. This may also involve losing.

Or, if you go the second route, you watch your O march up and down the field and walk off the field as winners.

Now, keep in mind that football is a wargame, involving both strength, skill, strategy and tactics.

Game film is watched, teams are scouted and players are analyzed as well as game plans.

So coaches are watched.

It's called getting good intelligence.

So you tell me, what would you do in this situation?

Would you use this information, freely gathered from a public place documented from actions performed in front of throngs of viewers?

Or would you refuse to use it because it's cheating?

My view is of course, you use the information.

Don't be ****ing ridiculous. This is football.

It's part of the game. Always has been.

Your view may be different.

Tell me why.

***PatsRI*** · 09-19-2007, 05:12 PM

Holy crap you have to learn the motto "less is more". That said, welcome.

Captain Cool · 09-19-2007, 05:28 PM

There are a few rational people out there amongst the fans of the other 31 teams! Not many though. Your post was too long to read all the way through, I have ADD!

Patriot_in_NY · 09-19-2007, 05:30 PM

Howdy, neighbor. I live in western NY myself (from ME originally).

I live amongst you as an OUTED Patriot fan and I've not really suffered much public humiliation this weak with all this, due in most part how pathetic the Bills are right now. All a basically say, when the ole "cheating" line come out is ask them to answer 1 question............ How much would you pay to watch just one game like the last couple we've been blessed to experience.

In the end, most Bills fans would kill to have an organization like we do. Most of the feigned indignant reaction come more from envy then actual outrage at the transgression itself. I think that's true all over.

I don't hate the Bills. I actually don't mind them at all. I feel bad for the long-suffering fans here. You don't deserve the product you been sold these past 10 years or so. Here's hoping you spank both the Dolphins and Jets this year.

nowayback · 09-19-2007, 05:30 PM

shive2999...you are a better man then me!

great post and i enjoyed reading every word.

yes BB definately wanted to make a statement...a stand...the pats are not going to be pushed around anymore without a fight. changing rules everyear to suit the colts. maybe as a pats fan...being a bit paranoid..it seems the rule changes are directed at the pats always. BB new excatly what he was doing..i dont think he realized the national ourage that would enuse though...heck maybe he did...who knows.

any chance of enticing schobel to take the weekend off? trip to the carribean?
with the bills i never know what to expect..31-0 or 0-31 or like last years 1st game?

BB_dynasty · 09-19-2007, 05:35 PM

I read a lot of that, made some good points. I will not respond with an essay, but it sounds like some could be true.

Quote:

3. To provide the BEST ever motivation for the team to fight like rabid wolverines to their 4th Superbowl title.

I would take a super bowl over a 1st rounder. 500k is a little much i think for this. Isn't that the maximum fine allowed?

JoeSixPat · 09-19-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB_dynasty

I read a lot of that, made some good points. I will not respond with an essay, but it sounds like some could be true.

I would take a super bowl over a 1st rounder. 500k is a little much i think for this. Isn't that the maximum fine allowed?

I don't think any of this was intended - but BOY, it's sure primed the Patriots to go after the Perfect Season record!

I'd be interested in Shiva's take on Losman... kindof seemed like he had turned a corner last season... I know he thinks the offense has been too conseravative... I'm not sure who is right but I think the Bills, though they may have taken a step backwards in an effort to get better long term, are not as bad as their record or play this year.

Good football insights from other team's fans are always welcome.

Flying Fungi · 09-19-2007, 05:46 PM

damn

not sure I can concur with your assessment, but it certainly is plausible

good read

welcome to forum

patsox23 · 09-19-2007, 05:55 PM

Welcome aboard, will check out your site. Not sure I agree with the Pats pulling this on purpose - in fact, I'm sure I DISAGREE - but I love the idea, and I certainly agree with a lot of other stuff you wrote.