Value? I got your VALUE right here - Page 2 - New England Patriots Forums

patriotsdynasty12189 · 09-06-2010, 09:33 PM

I really dont want to be that guy but whatever.

We could have had Anquan Boldin over Bethel Johnson too, We could have had Greg Jennings over Chad Jackson too. Blah blah blah. At the time you would have taken Bethel Johnson and his blazing speed and potential to be a gamebreaking wideout, over a player who played QB in HS and was a converted College Wideout.

Chad Jackson was regarded as the top WR prospect in that draft. I still think he could have been a gamebreaker if he wasnt made out of glass. Injuries happen to great prospects, look at Robert Edwards.

All I hear is all this time how we dont draft well because some players dont pan out. People seem to forget that some of our key components came from late round selections. Asante Samuel was a 4th rounder, Mike Wright was undrafted, Julian Edelman was a 7th rounder, Jarvis Green was a late round selection, Stephen Neal was undrafted, Dan Koppen was a 5th rounder, TBC was a 7th rounder, and some guy named Brady was a 6th round pick.

They're not many teams that have had that kind of late round success where after the 3rd round you pick up an All-pro Corner, a probowl center, the most underrated guard in the league, a guy that has 10 sacks and only the 2nd Patriot to do that in the 2000s, an up and coming WR, and a hall-of-fame QB.

Now lets look at their first rounders since 2001

Richard Seymour- Need I say more? Took him over David Terrell....

Daniel Graham- Such an underrated player, our running game has never been the same since we lost him and was a great redzone threat. I guess you can make a case for Ed Reed here but no one knows what he would do in our system.

Ty Warren- A stable force on the line, can be as disruptive as anybody.

Vince Wilfork, Ben Watson- Nailed on Wilfork who I think is in the top 3 of players in this draft that included, Larry Fitzgerald and Rivers and Manning and Tommie Harrris, Watson didnt pan out as expected but was fairly productive.

Logan Mankins- All Pro Guard

Laurence Maroney- Most frustrating pick here. He started his first season off with a bang with 2 straight runs both over 20 yards, then got hurt and just never had the same tenacity.

Brandon Meriweather- The new face of the new look Patriots D, gets better every year and made the pro bowl last season

Jerod Mayo- Again, another face of the new Patriots Defense, Came back from an injury expected to take him out half the season last year after 4 weeks. Still learning on the fly.

No first rounder

Devin McCourty- Belichick calls him a 4 down player. Has shown signs of becoming a great player in the pre-season. Cant judge him yet.

Anyteam would kill for that kind of success in the first round.

***Sciz*** · 09-06-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

when the pats traded down in 2009 (to the packers for clay matthews), the resulting picks turned into darius butler, brandon tate, julian edelman, and almost all of rob gronkowski (7th round pick used to trade up not included).

The 89th overall pick in 2009 turned into spikes, mesko, and the panthers' 2011 2nd.

After trading down from 22 this year, the pats got mccourty, price, and hernandez.

Summary:
2009 1st + 2009 3rd + 2010 1st = butler, tate, edelman, gronk, spikes, mesko, 2011 2nd, mccourty, price, and hernandez
(and each of those 3 starting picks were toward the end of the round)

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Crazy Patriot Guy · 09-06-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I_Bleed_Blue

In the last three years, or so, when was the last time they have traded up in the first round for a player that they wanted, or in the second round for that matter. Chad Jackson?

They moved up 2 spots last season to get Gronkowski. Two spots might not be much but they did get their guy.

BlueThunder · 09-06-2010, 09:36 PM

I won't be surprised when BB trades down with Raiders pick......probably a top 10.

Unless there is a new CBA and rookie salaries get adjusted way down.

We'll know soon enough where the weaknesses in the team are ( defense/OL/RB ) and BB will take measures to shore it up in the coming draft.

***Deus Irae*** · 09-06-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I_Bleed_Blue

In the last three years, or so, when was the last time they have traded up in the first round for a player that they wanted, or in the second round for that matter. Chad Jackson?

McCourty
Chung
Brace
Butler
Vollmer
Mayo

Those were the players chosen in the highest round N.E. has drafted in over the past 3 seasons. Which player(s) from that group do you have a problem with?

Ron Sellers · 09-06-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I_Bleed_Blue

Cut him some slack. He's a fan, he soesn't make the decisions. And some of the decisions that have been made recently by those that DO make the decisions have been somewhat suspect, as the Op in this thread suggests.

And, isn't that one of the purposes of these forums, for fans to vent? Rather than asking him to enlighten you some more, why not respond to his comments, item by item, with your viewpoint, and then let him counter You didnt do that, all you did was attack the messenger. See my point?

He is a fan, you are a fan, I am a fan, and as fans, we vent Have you ever vented?

MUch of his comment makes a lot of sense, from a fans viewpoint, not from the decision makers viewpoint.

I don't disagree that the Pats have made some decisions that did not work out. And I don't mind someone venting, I've done it before here and will surely do it again, probably sooner rather than later.

I just think that there has been a lot of unfounded finger-pointing at any time the Pats have traded down as 'evidence' that those trades are the reason there are holes and question marks on the team. I have yet to see any analysis to support those claims - even with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.

It seems to me that the 'Pats are screwing up by trading down' topic all started with opposing fans on national sites that were simply looking for a way to put down Belichick, the Pats, and Pats fans. Now it seems like it has trickled down as an accepted fact to pats fans on this site.

The problem with the 'trade down is bad' logic is that it assumes that by trading up the team gets a better player, and by trading down the team gets an inferior player. That's just not true. An example would be this last draft, when the Pats got the same exact player they were going to draft earlier by drafting down (McCourty.) Then the additional draft pick/movement up on the draft board gets ignored. As does the fact that higher draft picks can, and sometimes do turn out to be busts. And on top of everything else, that argument totally ignores the reality of a salary cap, or in the absence of that a budget.

And that's not even getting into blaming the scouting department for injuries that happened after the fact (McKenzie, Bussey.)

***shmessy*** · 09-06-2010, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by screamingPatsFan

......yea he has SB rings but how long can you use that to make up for his draft woes?
So now you got all your "value"d 2nd and 3rd round draft picks... quantity over quality (when is that ever a good thing??)

Your thread is satire, right?

Because, I thought it was understood that winning the Super Bowl is the priority instead of being admired by Mel Kiper.

If, indeed, your originating post was satire, then WELL PLAYED SIR!

Reckedtrek · 09-06-2010, 09:42 PM

The OP is right... we could have moved up and had Vernon freakin' Gholston, Dammit! But no... we had to trade down 3 spots and take some no name waste of space- Jerod Mayo.

The OP knows what he's saying and you're a homer if you can't see his logic.

patriot lifer · 09-06-2010, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CheeseMonkeys

He said he would have gotten the sure earlier round players rather than trade back and get 2 s#it players.

I think that's part of the problem though. Is there such thing as a "sure thing." So many early rounders don't pan out, and it puts all your chips in one basket. Plus, I think they felt that a number of the players in the late first round and second rounds were of comparable quality (in 2009 and 2010). So it would make sense to draft down and secure more picks. And let's not forget that we traded up to get Gronkowski, and we only traded down in the first round because BB was confident that nobody would take his player. The move made perfect sense and we picked up a third-rounder.

patriot lifer · 09-06-2010, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Sellers

I don't disagree that the Pats have made some decisions that did not work out. And I don't mind someone venting, I've done it before here and will surely do it again, probably sooner rather than later.

I just think that there has been a lot of unfounded finger-pointing at any time the Pats have traded down as 'evidence' that those trades are the reason there are holes and question marks on the team. I have yet to see any analysis to support those claims - even with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.

It seems to me that the 'Pats are screwing up by trading down' topic all started with opposing fans on national sites that were simply looking for a way to put down Belichick, the Pats, and Pats fans. Now it seems like it has trickled down as an accepted fact to pats fans on this site.

The problem with the 'trade down is bad' logic is that it assumes that by trading up the team gets a better player, and by trading down the team gets an inferior player. That's just not true. An example would be this last draft, when the Pats got the same exact player they were going to draft earlier by drafting down (McCourty.) Then the additional draft pick/movement up on the draft board gets ignored. As does the fact that higher draft picks can, and sometimes do turn out to be busts. And on top of everything else, that argument totally ignores the reality of a salary cap, or in the absence of that a budget.

And that's not even getting into blaming the scouting department for injuries that happened after the fact (McKenzie, Bussey.)