Fencer

Actually, I think Seymour's gotten a fair rap around here. He bears grudges, including against BB. Accepting that, he was a reasonable, hardworking player and helpful teammate. But he didn't like the Pats as well as we do.

Yes, his injuries and inconsistent production made people feel he wasn't one of the top, elite, most superior workers and tough guys. But the opposing extreme views (he's soft, he's dogging it, whatever) were restricted to a relatively small minority.

__________________
"To lose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness." -- Oscar Wilde

Raymond

Big Sey also has a full year under his belt now to reflect on an actual comparison of sorts.

Now he knows what he thought he knew before?

condon84

LOL at the epic ownage of Borges. That makes me smile.

supafly

As I stated in my post, Warren has never lived up to the elite athlete status awarded to him with the #3 overall pick, he is an underachiever at it's finest. I cannot agree that he's been a downright lousy player for most of his career.

Why is he old? Because he's 4 months older than Jarvis Green? I'll agree that a player who comes in the draft class of Seymour and a year before Peppers isn't 'young,' but I don't feel 31 is "that" old. If Warren and Seymour came in 2001, and the whole world was clamoring for Peppers who came in 2002, how can they now complain that Warren is too old?

Compared to Jarvis Green, who wasn't great, but was a viable rotational player:

Warren---more sacks than Green (32 to 28)
Warren---more passes defended (18 to 4)
Warren---played in 15 or more games 7 out of 9 yrs
Warren---way more tackles (228 to 157)

I agree with you about him being an underachiever etc, but cannot see that much of a difference in Green, + I don't get the whole age thing considering he's a yr older than Peppers and the same as Seymour and Green.

Deus Irae

1.) Warren was a top 3 overall pick, who's played far more snaps than Green, and has been in a 1-gap system most of his career, so I don't understand why you would think that an apt comparison.

2.) I didn't call him old.

3.) His best year was his rookie season, and he's been lousy enough for most of his career that 3 different teams that were absolutely desperate for D-line help have given up on him.

4.) He's now coming to a system that highlights his biggest weaknesses.

Could he turn it around and finally 'get it' in New England? Anything's possible. I wouldn't count on it, though.

__________________
"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
- Marcus Aurelius

GoWhalers

Why wouldn't Seymour recommend the Patriots to Warren?

I do believe Seymour enjoyed the on-the-field football environment and many successes with the Patriots.

What he didn't like was the pay discrepancy. If another team is going to over you 1.5x what the Patriots will offer, the Patriots will likely not overpay -- as he said, the team is run like a business.

If Warren's available offers are relatively close in dollars, of course Warren should choose the Patriots over another team for all the reasons Seymour gave. However, if Warren was a rising star, then choosing the Patriots may come at the sacrifice of long-term financial gain.

Warren is far from a rising star, so aside from family/geographical issues, I can't see why plus or minus a hundred grand would keep him from choosing the Patriots.

supafly

I'll agree that a comparison to Green isn't the greatest example, if you have another player in mind off hand, that is fine too. My comparison to Green is because that's the player we lost, and who some are expecting to replace numbers wise. They both have played approx. the same number of years also, and are the same age within 4-5 months, so while it's not the greatest comparison, it's not the worst either.

No, you didn't say he was old, but you did respond directly to my statement of "I'm not sure why some are seeing the signing as just another older vet."

His rookie season wasn't necessarily his best, as 2003 he had more sacks, and 2 returned fumbles, but 01 was surely one of 2 good seasons--so that's arguable. 7 out of 9 seasons he has played in 15+ games, which symbolizes a player who doesn't miss much time, so that's a plus for a BB selected vet who can add reps.

Your #3 argument of having 3 different teams giving up on him isn't too hot, considering Randy Moss will likely have his 4th team come next yr, that doesn't really prove he can't offer anything.

I don't know that this system highlights any larger weakness, especially in a 4 man front in a limited role. If this particular system highlights his weakness, then I would think Belichick is responsible for assessing that theory. There are always different variables that come into play, such as the poor talent level surrounding him at times, the hotter starts to seasons that taper off--which shouldn't happen in a limited role. Personally, I think that any warm body that can provide a breather or depth in an injury situation should be looked at with limited expectations. My main point was about his age, that's why I referred to it in my original post. If he can fend off an O lineman for an extra second or two, all the better. He does have size, versatility and experience.

The bottom line is that I really don't care all that much, whether it be Damione Lewis or Gerard Warren--I likely would've stuck up for both, and tried to look at it in a positive way. If BB thinks either can contribute, then he must have some kind of reason. I don't think we're all that far off on our assessment of Warren, although I may be giving him the benefit of the doubt, since many comments were about his age. If he can contribute fine, if not, there's not much lost. I think if he was a 3rd/4th rd pick, many may see the signing as just another guy for depth. Since it was a #3 overall, many figure that he sucks, that isn't fair IMO.

It'll remain a difference of opinion. While I think he may have something to offer, you don't seem to think so. I have been wrong numerous times before, and could very well be wrong with this too. Or I could refer to Belichick's assessment that he may have something to offer, which I am hopeful for.

Triumph

Like how many teams were really after him?

Its a meh signing.

Deus Irae

You're trying to compare a #3 pick who's played in 1 gap systems with a career backup from a 2 gap system. It's not an apt comparison. You'd have been better off with a Dan Wilkinson comparison, but he was a major disappointment, too.

Yes, and I noted that the issue was that he's lousy. I didn't point to his age. Age is irrelevant. If Andre Tippett could still get it done in the league, I wouldn't care about his age.

Great, so he can suck for more reps than someone else. I'm not sure why you're holding that out as a good thing. Jarvis Green did a lot of sucking for the Patriots last season. He's no longer with the team.



Moss was moved around because he was a pain in the ass. He has behaved better since coming to New England, but he's certainly not been blemish free. Warren's behavior is irrelevant, because it's his play that's been the problem. This was another bad comparison


Go look at why the Broncos traded him:

Warren trade seems imminent - The Denver Post

Broncos trade DT Gerard Warren to Raiders - USATODAY.com

Bates had the guy in camp and decided he couldn't get the job done. As for Belichick's assessment capabilities, he's the one who replaced Seymour with Green.

Well, he does suck when you're looking at him for a potential starter, and he has for most of his career. He's only been a decent player for about 2 seasons in his whole career, and neither of them was in a 2 gap system. On the other hand, you're right about the minimum downside to him as an individual player. The problem is that having him means someone else is not brought in. You seem more comfortable with that than I am.

I'm hopeful that the Patriots find a way to make him a decent player. That would be a significant improvement for the team at RDE. Even JAG-starter status would be an upgrade over what replaced Seymour last season.

__________________
"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
- Marcus Aurelius

supafly

I don't know how many people are really disputing it being a 'meh' signing, or thinking that we made a big off season acquisition. What it does is provide depth at a position that needed it, while utilizing (hopefully) whatever raw skills Warren originally had at being a top #3 draft selection. I thought one of BB great strengths was finding the good in any player?

We all realize he has underachieved, and didn't necessarily have tremendous competition for his services. A large portion of any sports team is made up of role players, seasoned vets, and "JAG's." This is symbolized even more in NE.

I think the idea that he is another older depth signing is obviously very true, and you and Deus are quite correct in assessing his skill set. What may be overlooked is the fact that there weren't exactly a high number of big name players available, not to mention the unlikelihood that we'd have signed them anyway. Every year we sign JAG's, I don't see why this is any different. Did you have a particular player in mind that you wanted us to acquire? (realistically)?

My point was mainly to defend his age, in comparing it with Peppers, Seymour, and Green, since many posters gave their disgusted opinions on 'another old Patriot JAG.' But if you must have a JAG sign here, isn't at least better that he possessed some sort of raw skill set? There are always examples of players who have gone to other teams that sometimes do just fine in a limited role, what better coach to find his strengths while watching closely for his weaknesses? Hell 2 of the 3 teams totally have sucked in CLE and OAK.

In other words, there may be some light to the fact that Bill Belichick is now working with the overall #3 pick as our JAG signing, compared to many other JAG signings that we are used to. He may play better than expected in a limited role. I certainly can't see how it's looked upon any worse?