Is it the coaching or the talent? - Page 2 - New England Patriots Forums

***Spiral*** · 10-13-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmt57

Is that really a fair way to judge BB or this coaching staff, by predicting outcomes without their starting QB? If you're going to do that then you need to compare to how you think every other team in the league would fare without their best player also.

Now you're predicting the team can win 10-11 games with average to below average talent at multiple positions. If that is the case then I'd say that is a very strong argument that the coaching staff is doing an above-average job.

One other thing: if the coaching staff is so horrible and win simply because Brady is good, then how did they ever win eleven games last year with a QB that hadn't started a game since high school, Deltha O'Neal at CB, and so many other players injured or on IR? Did the staff all take stupid pills this off-season? Was Josh McDaniels the only thing keeping them from duplicating the Lions '08 performance?

I evaluated the coaching staff this year by looking at the five games played to date. They have been outcoached in three of them, IMO.

Yes, I think this team could win 10-11 games with Brady at QB. In 2007, he was by far the best player in the league. If he gain get back to that level, he can make that much of a difference.

They won 11 last year because the coaching was better, Cassel had a really good year, Mayo was great, Seymour had a pretty good year, and we had a very easy schedule. Don't forget, they were 1-5 against playoff teams, with the only win coming against Miami.

***AndyJohnson*** · 10-13-2009, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiral

I looked at the five games so far this year. I think BB outcoached Atlanta, the way he took Gonzales out of the game and disrupted the Atlanta offense. I'd call the Baltimore game a push--the game came down to a couple of plays and a couple of calls. Against Buffalo, NY, and Denver, NE looked like they got outcoached. The coaching record to date: 1-3-1.

To evaluate the talent, I took the H-O-F QB out of the equation. I agree that it may not be fair to evaluate the team that way, but I'm trying to gauge the talent level of the rest of the team, without the effect of a player capable of making the players around him look a lot better than they are. What would a Brady-less team do for the rest of the year? Here's my guess:
Tenn-loss
TB-win
Mia-loss
Ind-loss
NYJ-loss
N.O.-loss
Mia-loss
Carolina, Buffalo, Jax, Houston: win two or three out of those four.

Without Brady, and with the current coaching staff, this appears to be a 5 or 6 win team.

Is the talent level on this team overrated? If so, hope I haven't overrated BB's ability to do something about it over the course of the next couple of years.

We were 11-5 without Brady last year, and you have us losing to an 0-5 team and going 5-11 this year without him.

edelmansarmy · 10-13-2009, 05:22 PM

It's the team not making the few plays needed to win the game.

The only coaching issue I've had so far this year was in the Jets game. I think we should have run the ball more.

For Denver, there were 17 points worth of plays that weren't executed by the offense. They usually are and will be by the end of the year.

I still really like this team. I'll take this journey rather than 17-0. We definitely weren't peaking at the right time during that season. 11-5 may be enough to win the division, and I think 12-4 is still in reach.

***Spiral*** · 10-13-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muzz

The talent at WR is marginal?
Really.....you REALLY think the WR talent on the pats is "marginal"

LBS-Mayo was ROY, and Thomas isn't that removed from being a multi talented player, I'm not the coach, but it seems to me like he's not being used to his full potential.
CB looks to be decent, maybe not the superstar shutdown corners.
RB is not the greatest, but I'm thinking if the run the damn ball the team will be top 10 or so overall, if they don't run they won't!

I think Randy Moss is becoming a really good...possession receiver. Let me ask a question: How many times did Brady overthrow him in 2007? How many times did he overthrow him on Sunday? Another thing I've noticed about him this year--he doesn't seem to be able to jump anymore. For a guy with a 40+" vertical, he doesn't seem to be able to go up and get balls like he used to. Is there an injury here? Welker is one of the top slot guys in the league, no question. Aiken would be lucky to get another job if he was cut tomorrow. Edelman has potential, but he's got a ways to go.

Bodden and Springs are average NFL starters. At that, they're better than they had last year. They both got worked last Sunday.

RBs: more JAGs. Morris is a veteran JAG, Faulk is a good (but slowing) third-down back, Maroney is on the verge of becoming a bust, and law firm is a feel-good, free-agent type. Move along everyone, nothing to see here.

Mayo is a good young player with a lot of upside. Thomas is an average NFL starter--not worth nearly what he's being paid. For a 2nd year free agent, Guyton has done a good job. There's definitely some upside there. Ninkovich, Woods, Alexander--these are borderline NFL players.

***AndyJohnson*** · 10-13-2009, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkone

Well, with a subpar Brady, not playing to his potential, you can see that this is a team that is maybe just above-average in terms of overall quality. It is not playoff-caliber as things currently stand .... (or at least not a team that will go very far in the playoffs).

We beat the only weak team we played.(Bills)
We beat the team that was widely considered the best in the NFL when we beat them (Ravens)
We beat a very strong team that is 3-0 vs everyone else. We beat them 26-10, and they have won all of their other games by an average of 31-12
We lost to a 5-0 team on the road, in OT
We lost to a division rival who was playing very well at the time.

We have played 4 of 5 games against teams that appear to be playoff contenders, and are in first place in our division and have only 3 games left with playoff contenders.
To say that if we continue to play the way we are playing we wouldnt make the playoffs is simply moronic.

***Spiral*** · 10-13-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson

We beat the only weak team we played.(Bills)
We beat the team that was widely considered the best in the NFL when we beat them (Ravens)
We beat a very strong team that is 3-0 vs everyone else. We beat them 26-10, and they have won all of their other games by an average of 31-12
We lost to a 5-0 team on the road, in OT
We lost to a division rival who was playing very well at the time.

We have played 4 of 5 games against teams that appear to be playoff contenders, and are in first place in our division and have only 3 games left with playoff contenders.
To say that if we continue to play the way we are playing we wouldnt make the playoffs is simply moronic.

We're not really in first place if we have the same record as a team that beat us.

To say that we only have three games left against playoff teams implies that Miami isn't one of them. I saw their games against Indy and NY, and I'd say that both of those games are going to really tough.

crypto · 10-13-2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiral

Tenn-loss
TB-win
Mia-loss
Ind-loss
NYJ-loss
N.O.-loss
Mia-loss
Carolina, Buffalo, Jax, Houston: win two or three out of those four.

You're out of your mind if you think the Patriots without Brady would be worse than any of those last four team. They would win at least one game at Miami, by the way, and would without question beat the Jets unless the Jets turn things around fast.

***Spiral*** · 10-13-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crypto

You're out of your mind if you think the Patriots without Brady would be worse than any of those last four team. They would win at least one game at Miami, by the way, and would without question beat the Jets unless the Jets turn things around fast.

If you think that we'd win all four of those games, plus one of the Miami games with an undrafted rookie free agent at quarterback, I admire your spirit.

edelmansarmy · 10-13-2009, 06:09 PM

This team should be 5-2 going into the bye. Stay the course. It's football. The season shifts every week.

***PATSNUTme*** · 10-13-2009, 06:11 PM

Is it the coaching or the talent? I'll go back to what I have been saying all along, it's the execution.

I don't think it's the coaching. And I think the talent is there, maybe not everywhere, but it's mostly there. But for some reason the execution is a little off. I can't put my finger on what it is and maybe it will just start clicking.