Fencer

That other thread on assessing Pioli has become a flamefest. Anyhow, here are some of my thoughts:

1. There can be no doubt that Pioli has done a great job of providing players that fit BB's system better than they fit other teams in the league. It's harder to say whether that proves the system is clever, or whether Pioli just does a good job of delivering the specific kind of player requested.

A related open question is whether Pioli could do it for any system, or just the one he knows best.

2. By all accounts the Patriots have a great, effective, well-organized field scouting organization. Pioli surely deserves a lot of credit for that, and it is most likely a skill that can be tranferred to another organization.

3. BB's system was much more unusual when he started with the Pats than it is now. That gave BB/Pioli an unfair advantage in getting who they wanted that has not wholly endured.

In a related unfair advantage, they knew a lot of JAG FAs who would up contributing early in the BB/Pioli era of the Pats.

4. Pioli is a very tough negotiator on contracts. I've sometimes thought he may be too tough, based on credible-sounding stories of guys who could have been retained by the Pats for less money than they wound up taking elsewhere.

That said, I think the complete list of serious botches in this regard is:

A. Pissing off Branch as a rookie, which came back to bite him at the end of Branch's contract.
B. Not locking up Asante as he began to prove his value.
C. Missing out on one more year of Ted Washington.
D. MAYBE Grahambo.

And if you're a good negotiator, the number of such botches shouldn't be zero. (If it is, you're negotiating too weakly.)

PittPatriot

I agree with most of your assessments, except you used the term 'unfair' advantage twice.
There is nothing unfair about having a system that is progressive and strengthens you for the future. It just means the others use an outdated model. There is also nothing unfair about knowing JAGs and FA based on past experiences.

maverick4

But would we have fit all our players under the cap without hard negotiating?

We could pay generously but that would destroy our overall depth

SoonerPatriot

To me B is maybe the biggest whiff Pioli had in his tenure with the Pats.

Ted Washington isn't a big deal because we won the SB the following year without him. The Branch issue is a little more subjective since his agent decided to go public with the squabble first.

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Fencer

That use of "unfair" advantage has been popular since at least the early 1980s in my business, which is high-tech, as a generalization of the concept of "barrier to entry". Somebody -- either Hambrecht & Quist, a major venture capitalist, or both -- talked endlessly about the desirability of investing in companies with unfair competitive advantages.

Fencer

The ideal godlike negotiator always knows exactly how hard to negotiate.

The best possible human negotiator sometimes asks for too much and sometimes asks for too little, but balances those errors pretty well.

I'm suggesting Pioli's litany of asking for too much is a little too long for him to be regarded as the best possible mortal negotiator, but that's it's not too long for him to be regarded as pretty good at it.

Fencer

No argument from me on that.

fgssand

At least this thread is civil, so far, I agree with B.

I still think he stays as what has really changed in two years??


1/8/07
Statement from Patriots V.P. of Player Personnel Scott PioliNew England PatriotsSpeculation regarding the Giants interest in Patriots VP of Personnel Scott Pioli was answered today in a brief statement from Pioli issued through the Patriots PR department.


I am very honored to be granted the opportunity to discuss a potential position with the New York Giants. I have tremendous respect for the Kraft family, the Mara family, the Tisch family and the Giants organization. After careful consideration, and for personal reasons, I am continuing in my current role with the New England Patriots."

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BradyBranch39

The problem with Branch was that his ***hole agent was being such a whiny ***** with the whole situation. He went public with every little thing, etc.

I bet that Branch wanted to stay more than he wanted to leave... but his agent wanted his share of the most (every little) $$ he could get.

Then, there was that whole thing wiht the Jets -- tampering, right?

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dhamz

When was this time the Pats were supposed to give Asante a long term deal on their terms?

He blew up in 2006. By then it was too late to give him anything but a big $ deal so it has to be before.

The case being made cannot be he should have gotten a long term extension after 2004 - after his 2nd season? That just isn't done in the NFL and the Pats would have opened up a can of worms with other players they would still be dealing with now.

The time to visit an extension would have been after 2005. Does everyone forget Asante played poorly for most of 2005? He didn't look like a future star that season. His play was considered a disappointment. No one was calling him a must extend then like they are with a Wilfork.

This seems like a case of revisionist history to me.