K-Ro 25

Wow

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SVN

pats were also looking to sign pace from what i know. iam pretty sure if he had signed here we wouldve been 'excited' to see what he can do. but with the jets he is just an unproven player.
i also hope he is a JAG but right now the probability of being good/bad is just abt equal.

JoePats

Exactly right. Now, the Pats were not going to give him the money the Jets did, but that's not relevant in terms of how much he improves their team. Look who he replaced: Victor Hobson. Hobson was playing at his weaker position on the Jets last year, OLB, where he was hideous. He then came to the Pats, where he played his stronger position, ILB, and couldn't even make the team. He started on the Jets last year at his weaker position! And somehow this is not supposed to be an upgrade? Please.

Richter

Please stop that. Stop with the "if he signed here, we'd love him" crap. It's a strawman argument, it's used all the time, it's unsupportable and brings nothing worthwhile to the table. Considering how much of a bust he's been throughout his career, I would have looked at his signing with the Pats with mild trepidation. It would have depended on how much money he signed for, of course. He got big money from the Jets, so they better hope he produces to that level. I doubt he will. It's not that he'll necessarily be a bad player- it's just that they're paying him to be an elite outside rusher, and I highly doubt he'll produce like one. Their pass rush does not scare me whatsoever, nor does their passing offense. The Pats contain Thomas Jones and keep a balanced offense, and let Favre reel off his usual string of brain farts against a good defense, and they'll win handily.

SVN

iam not using any strawman arguments nor iam not debating the money they paid. doesnt mean he cant be good. just saying what we all say here -maybe not you. anyone who plays for us is 'goiing to be a solid player' . for other teams he is unproven waste. going by your logic the jets have regressed even further from last yr and its the same team like with hobson and vilma and dwayne robertson.would you be more worried with pennington playing than favre or you think favre is the same as pennington ?if anything , our team has remained more or less the same but they have had a lot of changes. there is nothing to say they can be good but nothing either to say they will be bad.
we can be a superior team and win with the other teams players being decent too.

WhiZa

Did anyone hear Tim Graham on ESPNews? Saying things like the patriots made a bad choice to keep Brady in games last season to "run up the score every game". Could have been valuable playing time for Cassel.

Nice to hear a middle ground opinion from a die hard Bills fan who gets paid to run a nonbias AFC East blog.

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SVN

he is a ex miami writer so what can you expect . if cassel had come out thrown a few more TD's they wouldve said the same -they are running up the score.
memo to other 31 teams. if your team is up by a lot of points. take out your QB and give the backup QB reps by handing off the football to the RB because your starter may get injured next yr

Richter

Judging by your response, you don't understand my argument. Will the Jets be better? Probably. It's hard not to be better than 4-12. The thing is, going from Hobson to Pace is like going from Vince Young to Jon Kitna as a passer, not from Young to Brady, which is how it's being treated, because he got a lot of money. Pace has done nothing in his career, is not proven as an outside rusher in their scheme, and is being paid like a top tier player. Does he make the Jets better? Probably some, yes. Is it enough to significantly upgrade the team? No. And that money he's being paid likely prevented the Jets from bringing in other players that could have made them more competitive. And yes, I actually would be more worried with Pennington in there. He knows the offense better, the receivers better, and takes better care of the ball than Favre. Favre might burn you slinging the ball around, but he's more likely to keep both teams in the game with his play.

You say there is nothing to say the changes the Jets made will be good or bad. I say there is- the past performance of the players they brought in. Going by that, and projecting them into the Jets system, I'm not seeing many guys that will upgrade what was a meager 4-12 squad significantly to compete with even a weakened Patriots squad that is playing without its best player. If the Pats struggle, it's more likely to be because they played poorly, down to the level of their opponent, not because the Jets suddenly improved by a great amount and started winning significantly more individual matchups.

And you're right, the Patriots can win by being the better team playing against other solid players. They've done in plenty in the past against actual good teams, like the Colts and Chargers. No one is saying otherwise, but you keep painting that as my position, which IS a strawman argument. I say I don't think highly of the Jets players, because of my evaluation of them, not because of the laundry they wear. Period.

JoePats

This is illogical. You have taken a negative opinion of Mangini and thus assumed that he can't possibly do anything right, instead of looking at what he actually did, and what he actually lost.

For example...

Favre > Chad Pennington...this is obvious. Well you might say that Favre's low is lower than Chad, while ignoring that Favre's upside is absurdly better.

Jenkins > Robertson...Sure Jenkins has had his issues. So does Robertson. Mainly he stinks. The Jets couldn't even get a 3rd round pick for a guy they drafted 4th overall. And he was playing out of position, playing 3-4 nose. How is this not a big upgrade?

Pace > Hobson...Victor Hobson playing his best position can't get a job on any team in the league. Victor Hobson playing his weaker (OLB) position STARTED last year on the Jets. Pace is a rush linebacker who fits well in a 3-4 defense. Mangini is not the only one who thought so. Bill Parcells did. Bill Belichick did. But of course, he is not an upgrade over a guy who was playing out of position last year and this year can't find a job.

08 OL > 07 OL...Faneca is only a seven-time Pro Bowler. Woody is only replacing Anthony freeking Clement. But yea I could see how these aren't significant upgrades.

fgssand

Gee, I took a nap, what did I miss???????

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