TommyBrady12

i stand corrected. but 2-2 in his last four CCG/SB appearances is not bad at all considering 2 of them were super bowl wins.

all playoff games are important, but usually in the CCG and SB the competition gets a lot harder. This year Baltimore was better than Houston, and last years NYG were better than Baltimore and Baltimore was better than Denver. To me the wild card/division games for this patriots team should be a gimme. Just consider why Joe Flacco hasn't been considered elite up until now - a whole bunch of divisional/wild card wins and ZERO CCG/SB wins (up until last week). I'm not saying brady isn't elite because he is, but CCG/SB is where legacies are made.

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"He’s the greatest quarterback to ever play the game. He goes from being a rookie that nobody is expecting anything from, to taking over with people saying he can’t do it, to winning three Super Bowls....It should already be obvious he’s the greatest quarterback to ever have played. "

- Steelers S Troy Polamalu on Tom Brady

Raymond

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supafly

There's been plenty of talk every year about Flacco and his playoff record. As a matter of fact, he's been called a regular season mediocre QB and a playoff elite QB for at least the past couple of seasons. Everyone else is certainly counting those "gimme" games vs the top 8 teams in the NFL every year.

Up until one week ago, Brady had won 5/6 AFCCG games with the only one being the defensive collapse at Indy in the 2006 season. It's hard for me to believe that isn't "elite." All 5 SB's were within 4 pts, so it's not that big of a deal that he's 3-2 and didn't benefit from any good luck (or defensive play, that's for damn sure) over the 2 NYG Super Bowls, yet in BOTH he had his team in the lead with less than 3 minutes to play...

If you don't throw last year's SB right out the window by itself that's just unfair. At one point it was halfway through the 3rd quarter and he was clearly the MVP at that point having gone 20/24 for 2 TD's and a record setting 17 straight completions. If that isn't having a "big game" then I don't know what is. It wasn't his fault that the defense blew an 8 point lead in the second half.

And I'd still never put Flacco in the status of "elite" myself even if he wins on Sunday. Apparently his agents and he have the opinion that he's played better than Peyton Manning's/Drew Brees' 20 million dollar + salary and he somehow deserves more.

Keep in mind that we're talking about a guy who had put up 7 pts last Sunday as the game moved late into the 3rd quarter. Even then he still gets consideration for that kind of salary strictly BY winning those "gimme" playoff games up to this point.

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Tunescribe

That was on BB, not Brady. It might serve you to take in the post-game press conferences.

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ivanvamp

I don't like that this discussion is morphing into an either/or; either Brady is an elite all-time great *or* he's become a big-game playoff underachiever. There are several facts that I'd like to highlight:

(1) By any measure - statistics, individual awards, team accomplishments, whatever - Tom Brady is one of the elite, all-time great quarterbacks. He's in the inner-inner-inner circle of QB greatness. He may in fact be the GOAT, but if he's not, he's nowhere worse than 3rd of all-time. By really any measure. And when *all* the measurements are taken into consideration, the complete portfolio ranks with anyone's.

(2) Tom Brady has *not* performed nearly up to his career norms in the playoffs. That's a brute, honest, for-real fact. There may be good reasons for it (and many have been posted here). But it is true nonetheless. His last six championship games (be it AFCCGs or Super Bowls) have produced a very sobering and uninspiring stat line and team record. His teams are just 2-4 in those games and his QB rating in those games is poor. This is undeniably true. It would be one thing if he played poorly and the team won, or if he played great and the team lost. He hasn't played well in these games, the offense has woefully underperformed, and the team has a .333 winning percentage in those six games. All facts.

(3) No player of any caliber has not had subpar performances in big playoff games. Even a guy who everyone considers one of the greatest players of all-time (and certainly the greatest WR), Jerry Rice, has put up some pretty big stinkers:

1987, 49-3 loss to NYG: 3 rec, 48 yds
1988, 36-24 loss to Min: 3 rec, 28 yds
1990, 15-13 loss to NYG: 5 rec, 54 yds
1994, 44-3 win over NYG: 3 rec, 43 yds
1995, 44-15 win over Chi: 4 rec, 48 yds
1995, 38-28 win over Dal: 2 rec, 36 yds, 1 td
1999, 30-27 win over GB: 1 rec, 6 yds
2002, 16-13 loss to NE: 4 rec, 48 yds

You get the idea. Montana has had some horrendous games in the playoffs too. As has Elway, Marino, you name it. If you play in a lot of playoff games, you're bound to have plenty of bad ones. It goes with the territory.


These three facts demonstrate that it's totally normal for elite players to have bad games in big playoff spots. It doesn't make them less elite. It makes them *normal*. Brady is as big a winner as has ever existed in the NFL. He has put up an ungodly (I mean that in a good way) statistical resume. He has won tons of individual awards and set many individual NFL records. He is one of the very, very, very best players ever to put on an NFL uniform at any position, and QB specifically. And yet all that is true even though he has struggled in quite a few big playoff games.

pherein

Maybe not, but its understandable. Considering the performace of the WR's,gronk is out, and ravens defense VS NE's defense that day.

People think that Brees is losing games by interceptions, and that the offense can not play of turf, both completely false, but you would think it if you didnt dig deeper, and just looked at wins and losses.

Truth is we had 2 WR's in the top 10, and Graham was #1 in dropped balls this year in the NFL. That put Brees in 3rd and 7, or 3rd and 12, depending on the bad run play. Which forced him to thread the needle to guys that were actually catching that day, and force interceptions. Looks like Brees was blowing it on paper, but if you watch the game, he was trying to save it, and had to push it.
Im glad he does that.

Saints offence on turf is simple. Look at the points, and you see we should have won, but the defense cant play out of the dome. Thats the problem. When did SF or seahawks ever put up 36 pts in a game,lol.

The thread is that Brady chokes, and that just means that the OP didnt feel like digging deeper. Bradys going to lose playoff games, but calling him a choker is pretty crazy.

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supafly

I enjoyed the post and I agree with a lot of what you said.

Personally, I don't care for the singling out of certain playoff games though, as each and every playoff game is certainly "big" at the time. Keeping that in mind, Brady has indeed had some enormous playoff games, and they have indeed been since the 2005 season.

If we pick and choose what some of us should consider "bigger" games than others, the whole argument tends to be watered down. All of the single elimination playoff games have been very, very big at the time as the loser's season is immediately over.

He had a 93% completion rate in the 2006 playoff game, and helped to put 34 pts on the board in the AFCCG (including a 21-3 lead). Again, we're looking at a complete defensive breakdown of epic proportions. Just last year he also had 6 TD's in a playoff game. This year alone he had a playoff game of 3 TD's and 0 INT's too.

Personally one other thing of note is that I do not have a problem with the NY teams and that 3 game span either. The NYG loss #1 wasn't all on Brady. Bringing your team back from behind to score what should have been yet another SB winning TD late in the game isn't something to be ashamed about, neither are those stats against that kind of defense.

Last year's SB isn't even close to being a bad game, no one will even begin to convince me otherwise. That leads us to the NYJ divisional game where he had an "average" QB rating rivaling his all time total. That also includes 2 TD/1 INT. If that is what we're going to group into poor playoff performances then we should all be ashamed. It wasn't "good" by Brady standards, but there are many teams who would be totally happy with their QB throwing 2 TD/1 INT with a QB rating in the mid 80's. It was average compared to most, yet sub-par for Brady. I can admit that it was a poor showing by him, but I don't agree with many posters who start threads about it and point to that specific game as though it's just downright awful.

That brings us to the 3 Baltimore games....

I see a very good QB in big game settings still, yet when competition increases and the defenses become harder other parts of the team must step up and that's where we've seen failure, but the 3 Baltimore games are what personally stick out to me.

The 0-3 record in the NY playoff games doesn't convince me personally that he has failed in big settings due to the circumstances. I see a good game, an average game, and maybe a poorer game all shuffled around.

The 3 Baltimore games now become the biggest common qualifier to me personally, yet you may feel differently. To me that is what could possibly be taken away from all of this, that Baltimore has proven to slow him down and make him look bad, and in a significant way. However that's still one team.

In the end your point rings true on many levels anyway.

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pherein

You just answered your own question DaBruinz with the word "normally". Means hes no choker. He normally does not.

#1 why was Brady doing 54 passes? you know your in trouble then. I cant think of a QB in the NFL that can throw 54 passes perfectly and not get and Int or 2.

No run game.

Look Im totally objective about the guy. My objectivity ends probably with my team.

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juny

Don't forget that in 2 of the 3 Baltimore games, his best weapon (welker in 09 and gronk this year) was lost to injury in the week before the game. That has got to count for something when taking into account for the team's losses.

TommyBrady12

Brady has won the SBs with deion branch, bethel johnson, troy brown, etc. there is no reason why he could have performed better with welker, lloyd and Ahern. We were all praisng brady for winning with crummy receivers in the pat, now gronk goes down and peopke have a thousand excuses for why they lost. It's either brady or the coaching that's the problem.

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"He’s the greatest quarterback to ever play the game. He goes from being a rookie that nobody is expecting anything from, to taking over with people saying he can’t do it, to winning three Super Bowls....It should already be obvious he’s the greatest quarterback to ever have played. "

- Steelers S Troy Polamalu on Tom Brady