Deus Irae

I didn't straw man you at all, as my follow up posts developed the comments.

Your argument was crap.

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TyronePoole

This was in my very first post:

I then went on to say that without due process the evidence presented selectively by the NFL is largely meaningless in determining guilt in response to this:

My entire argument from the get go was that the whole point of due process in our legal system is that verdicts are not reliable in any way without it. A poster disagreed and chose to link the players not having due process with them being guilty. You chose to jump in and make an argument out of complete ignorance and now that you've likely realized your mistake you are going to stick with it out of stubbornness.

If you took the time to actually read and absorb what other posters say it would go along in helping you avoid embarrassing exchanges like this in the future.

MoLewisrocks

The last paragraph in King's summation pretty much sums it up. This is about a handful of grown men who refused to be accountable dragging everyone through the mud because for the first time in their lives they are facing consequence. And a worthless union that has never been more than an association devoted to inflating the wealth of the top 10% of it's membership and lining it's own pockets at the lifelong expense of the majority of it's members.

Bedard summed up the Saints defense pretty well tonight too.

Well, they were there and it did exist and they did participate to varying levels and Goodell chose to punish select players and coaches and the organization accordingly. Everyone punished was well aware of what was going on and whether they actively participated or not (and all of these players did) they were in position to stop it. Loomis was the GM who hired all of them, Payton was the head freakin' coach who pushed for Williams hire and retention, Vitt was actually tasked with keeping tabs on Williams, Vilma was a team captain and the leader of the defense, Fujita was the players union rep and a member of the gd NFLPA Executive Committee. Hargrove is on tape demanding payment for his presumed knockout of a QB after Vitt told the team Favre was out. Doesn't matter that he returned to play any more than it matters whether money actually changed hands or was intended to... Just being in on the whole stupid program whether you "intended" to follow through or not or were just bs'ing like big men for your teamates benefit is enough to warrant the punishment. If they had much more evidence that the approach succeeded they'd have had to ban most of them permanently.

There are only two foolish reasons why players are supporting this bs. It pits the players against the league which is job 1 for a players association that doesn't want it's membership focusing on what really matters and the mere concept of consequence scares the crap out of the vast majority of them moreso than having a bounty placed on them. Defensive players close ranks to protect their own and most offensive players are reticent to piss them off by disagreeing.

These guys can't help themselves. Hell, a staggering percentage of them will be bankrupt in 5 years. Vilma's legal fees alone should insure he is. They don't need due process at this juncture, they need tough love discipline. There will be plenty of time for due process down the road, trust me..




NFL reveals 'overwhelming evidence' to reporters in Saints case - Peter King - SI.com

ausbacker

Seems like a perfect time for Shaggy and RikRok to make an appearance.

Joker

There's little doubt the aggrieved players will find a way to take action against the league for the sanctions. But now that the league has shared its case with the press -- and, as a result, the public -- it's not quite the slam-dunk case of negligence the players have charged. Either way, this is a black eye that won't soon go away, and league officials seemed to take little joy in smearing such a charismatic franchise in a Manhattan boardroom at the start of a long, hot Monday.

"Does anyone think this is how we wanted to spend the offseason?'' Pash said, "taking one of the great stories of the NFL, the New Orleans Saints, where we're playing the Super Bowl this year, and having it dominate the headlines?''

No. But it is.

just read the entire article twice just to make sure....how the hell you arrive at this ludicrous "Goodell Slam Dunks The Players" stance you keep parroting defies reality...if anything, this column makes Goodell look even WORSE.Isn't it great that the league officials don't take any joy in SMEARING such a charismatic franchise...but smear they shall at any cost. Well then, what is good for the goose is good for the gander MY grandparents used to tell us....therefore,the players should continue with their efforts to show negligence even though, post this dog and pony Goodell show with the press yesterday, it's not quite the slam dunk it looked like. THAT means there is STILL a case there...any other interpretation suggesting finality is intergalactically moronic.

Beyond this issue,anyone associated with the players union should be able to open up the Sal Alosi tripping scandal which, as anyone who was alive and breathing witnessed, Goodell quickly swept under the rug as he took at face value that Rex Ryan knew nothing of the organized actions of his players and coaching staff, even as the reprehensible and blatant breaking of NFL rules on national television were aired, re-aired, and archived for posterity. Why no press conference with the press explaining THAT unilateral decision by Goodell? Ryan said he knew nothing...that's it, case over! Fujita says he knows nothing...SMEAR SMEAR SMEAR..."even though I don't like it one bit...nope...don't like it...but YOU did it because I say so"....a two year old kid could see through this sham.

I don't like the whole sordid mess...I think what Williams was involved in was despicable...but for the life of me I cannot see why ANYONE would side with Goodell's intransigent stance against any transparency whatsoever. If what he says is true then meet the players in court and bury them...ON THE RECORD. THAT is the American way.

Gumby

good luck holding your breath on that one.
In the distasteful position of Goodell's defense: Is probably not an easy one to investigate (if he even tried). Only if sexy rexy was stupid enough to send e-mails saying 'make sure we have the wall working on sunday' or if they actually practiced the lining up in practices would you be able to put the kaybosh on 'plausible deniability'.

I would take issue with half of this: I can understand the NFL (and Goodell as their head) not wanting to set precedent of going to a court. As others have said they negotiated the issue and have a private contractual agreement (the CBA). The commissh has the authority to assess penalties (suspensions and fines) for behavior detrimental to the game. They aren't going to start subordinating that right to an unpredictable outside agency.

The problem is the current commissh has class pets and is inconsistent with that authority and ....

As to your transparency point - there I would agree. If he is going to start holding PCs and releasing stories that go down the road toward defamation then he needs to provide more info to all.

& Part of that transparency should be some kind of conduct guidelines somewhat like Deus suggested. I would prefer something with several broad categories with a maximum penalty for each category: Maybe NFL-infractions, NFL-misdemeaners, and NFL-felonies. Then within the categories specific common offenses should be identified and the catch-all or "similar-level offenses".
( If something like this was in place way-back when; the field operating guide offense would have been identified for the "infraction" that it was.)

Urgent

from 1984...

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WhiZa

For someone that says he doesn't want his name associated with bountygate he sure is making a circus of it

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PatsSox363804

I can't help but wish the Patriots fought spygate this hard. Even if it didnt matter in the end I hate that we just rolled over and accepted the punishment.

MoLewisrocks

The Saints aren't fighting this. Four players and their so called union are. And they aren't even willing to go on the record under oath denying their involvement because they can't. Easier to frame plausible denials in the media, or for that matter just deny that the accuser has any real proof. This really wouldn't have played out much differently in a court of law. The league's evidence is largely circumstantial, but they have a boatload of it. They also have eye witness testimony, so the players and the union characterize that as heresay. They'd be the typical defendents who opt not to take the stand in their own defense because they wouldn't want to perjure themselves under cross examination. At the end of the day they don't even want their day in court. They just want the threat of it to somehow get them off the hook. Didn't work last spring, won't work now. True to form these guys never learn from their mistakes. Had they just owned up rather than lying and stonewalling the investigation their coaches made me do it do it might have carried enough weight to at least mitigating their suspensions by half. But that wasn't what they wanted. They wanted immunity and absolution. And the league couldn't and wouldn't provide that three years and countless inquiries and multiple opportunities to come clean after the fact. They are trying to change a culture and punishing coaches and FO personnel and organizations alone won't accomplish that as long as players believe they will never be punished even for willingly participating in that culture.

The NEP never denied doing what they were accused by the league of doing. They did deny doing what the media attempted to portray them as doing. And they vigorously defended themselves when they were accused of doing something far more eggregious that never happened. And they were vindicated on that score for all the good it did them. The Saints organization is likely pissed that they got caught and punished, but they aren't denying why they did. The players in question aren't even denying it, just denying that the league can prove it and wailing about the inherent unfairness of the process they signed off on just ten months ago. Apparently no one ever explained to them or their legion of supporters in principle that no one ever said it woud be fair. Welcome to the real world.