Belichick's Scarlet Letter: Who is the one guy you avoid? - Page 5 - New England Patriots Forums

Underdog · 03-16-2010, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ochmed Jones

The more I look at the types of players available at #22, the more I would like to see BB trade up and spend the cash to take Suh. Plug him in at Seymour's old spot and then use our three second orunders to take potential playmakers.

I've seen you propose trading up for Suh a few times. It'll never happen. Ever. BB would never make a move like that. Ever. You're talking about giving up at least two of the 2nd's this year and one of the 1st's next year, plus paying him at least as much if not more than you just gave VW. That's craziness. Never happen. Not ever.

mcsully · 03-16-2010, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ochmed Jones

Graham is a tough guy to love because his measurables are horrible, but his production on tape is out of this world.
- So if his production on tape is so over the top, why was the Michigan defense so bad last year.
- And if Graham and the defense were on the field for 80 plus plays per game, shouldn;t he have huge numbers, just due to the share volume of chances to make plays?

I'm not a big fan of writing a player because he doesn't have the measureables.. Watson, and Chad Jackson are two names that come to mind when I think of people discussing measureables.
Our sack leader last year is 6-2 250lbs.. Graham is 6"1 260 pounds.. Some of the best pass rushers are undersize.. Pat Kirwan made mention of this last week.. Smaller guys have better moves and can get under the tackles arm reach and shoulder..

Plus your not getting a one trick pony, he can stop the run..

Quote:

The more I look at the types of players available at #22, the more I would like to see BB trade up and spend the cash to take Suh. Plug him in at Seymour's old spot and then use our three second orunders to take potential playmakers.

How do you purpose we move up to #1 or #2 without giving up our three second rounders?

***patchick*** · 03-16-2010, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsully

Our sack leader last year is 6-2 250lbs.. Graham is 6"1 260 pounds..

Right, that's exactly my worry -- drafting a Tully Banta-Cain type at #22 overall.

It's not that Graham wouldn't be a useful player, but his physical limitations make him a real long shot to become an impact player at the NFL level. He just seems like a poor value at #22, and pretty comparable to guys who should still be available in the 2nd.

mcsully · 03-16-2010, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patchick

Right, that's exactly my worry -- drafting a Tully Banta-Cain type at #22 overall.

It's not that Graham wouldn't be a useful player, but his physical limitations make him a real long shot to become an impact player at the NFL level. He just seems like a poor value at #22, and pretty comparable to guys who should still be available in the 2nd.

If you feel we should go for measureables over production, your in a different camp than I.
IMHO Graham is an exact replica of LaMar Woodley... His limitations haven't prevented him from reaching double digit sacks the past two years..

Like I stated before, if we pass on him and go for another measureable guy, I'm going to take a shot of Grey Goose..

Warren94 · 03-16-2010, 02:57 PM

mcsully,

we'll synchronize it with me in the mt time zone. IF Suh falls out of the the top ten then you make a trade but that won't happen. Never say never. Orapko fell to Washington last yr.

SeauOUCH · 03-16-2010, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsully

If you feel we should go for measureables over production, your in a different camp than I.
IMHO Graham is an exact replica of LaMar Woodley... His limitations haven't prevented him from reaching double digit sacks the past two years..

Like I stated before, if we pass on him and go for another measureable guy, I'm going to take a shot of Grey Goose..

I'm with you on this one. Graham is the guy I want the most in this draft. ( thats projected to be there ) Team leader, good character guy with a non stop motor & the best run stopping LB in the draft. Sign me up.

***patchick*** · 03-16-2010, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsully

If you feel we should go for measureables over production, your in a different camp than I.
IMHO Graham is an exact replica of LaMar Woodley... His limitations haven't prevented him from reaching double digit sacks the past two years..

I have to wonder, if Graham wore a different uniform would everybody be convinced he's Woodley -- a guy who is a massive exception among successful OLBs?

Just look at last year's OLBs drafted in the top 2 rounds. If you went purely by college production, you'd have taken Everette Brown and Larry English and come away with a total of 4.5 rookie sacks. If you'd gone for the physical freaks who put up no numbers in college, you'd have Cushing and Matthews and 14 sacks.

As it happens, though, I'm not actually arguing for measurables over production. I'm arguing that Graham is very poor value at #22 compared to a guy like Te'O-Nesheim -- who is bigger, a comparably high-effort leader type, and had 30 sacks in college -- a round later.

Warren94 · 03-16-2010, 03:23 PM

I would put Graham inside next to Mayo IMO. I realize it doesn't help from the olb standpoint but what a tandem those two would make inside.

mcsully · 03-16-2010, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patchick

I have to wonder, if Graham wore a different uniform would everybody be convinced he's Woodley -- a guy who is a massive exception among successful OLBs?

Just look at last year's OLBs drafted in the top 2 rounds. If you went purely by college production, you'd have taken Everette Brown and Larry English and come away with a total of 4.5 rookie sacks. If you'd gone for the physical freaks who put up no numbers in college, you'd have Cushing and Matthews and 14 sacks.

As it happens, though, I'm not actually arguing for measurables over production. I'm arguing that Graham is very poor value at #22 compared to a guy like Te'O-Nesheim -- who is bigger, a comparably high-effort leader type, and had 30 sacks in college -- a round later.

K, my initial post was regarding someone else's comment and then you added in.. (sometimes I lump everything in because I don't have time to answer everyone

)
I understand your point but we'll agree to disagree when we can get him and how important he is..

Just a couple of notes

- Woodley only had 4.5 sacks his 1st year..
- Mathews is only 240 pounds and people were worried about his weight in our system 9(so the measureables weren't there)
- English rotated most on 3rd downs
- Panthers traded a next year 1st for Everett.. SO they valued him more than a 2nd rounder

But again not to get off topic.. I like Graham for 3 reasons
1. Great college stats
2. Love Michigan players and their program
3. has a solid predraft work outs..

TriplecHamp · 03-16-2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren94

watching him at the Senior bowl. he didn't do anything to impress me. doesn't use his hands very well to get off blocks. I just think he has huge bust potential. over-rated imo

Honestly your absolutely right, hes the best projected 3-4 DE in a weak DE class so hes shot up the boards with his offseason workouts and allstar games. He's not an impact player like a Seymour and it seems that everybody wants him to be Seymour's replacement over time but its not happening. He wouldnt be an immediate upgrade over Mike Wright IMO but he does have potential.