We Agree That We Need an OLB and a S. - Page 3 - New England Patriots Forums

***mgteich*** · 03-31-2009, 10:50 AM

Galloway will make the squad unless he injured as is true for any other roster player. I suppose we could add Banta-Cain, but he is an inexpensive experienced OLB and top special teamer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Box_O_Rocks

With the new wedge rules I'd be surprised to find a 'rookie' "upgrade" for Aiken in this draft, though there may be a couple kids his size who could be developed to fill his role. Based on the limited reps LeVoir took in relief of Light and Kaczur, we might find an upgrade amongst the top tackles, but it's not too likely past the Top Six.

The underlined players may not be as far out on the bubble as we might think. Ventrone has earned his spurs as a Special Teamer and I'll be watching preseason to see if there is any progress in his play as a Wide Receiver. LeKevin has developed nicely as a DE, there are some interesting prospects in this draft class, certainly you and I have agreed that a DE candidate is worth drafting ahead of Sey and Jarvis reaching UFA after the season, but unless they're drafting one high Smitty's primary competition is his linemate from Nebraska and Kenny Smith if he's re-signed. I found it encouraging to read the Belichick transcript where he corrected the interviewer by 'adding' Redd to the discussion on OLB, his potential to fill a power role in Willie Mac's footsteps greatly limits the prospects who might upgrade him.

There are missing players from your list whom I find interesting:

- Tully Banta-Cain
- Joey Galloway

***BelichickFan*** · 03-31-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgteich

Galloway will make the squad unless he injured as is true for any other roster player.

Barring injury, Galloway is a stone cold lock to make the team. He is an upgrade over Gaffney and the clear #3 ahead of Lewis.

***mgteich*** · 03-31-2009, 11:01 AM

You have Redd ahead of Banta-Cain. We'll see who stays if we draft an OLB. In any case, we could add Banta-Cain to the list making 17 bubble positions.

I also expect LeVoir to make the team, hopefully with one OT upgrade over O'Callaghan/Britt.

Perhaps Lewis has replaced Slater as a special teamer, allowing a roster spot for a wide receiver AND Ventrone AND Aiken.

LeKevin is indeed progressing. I would not averse to keeping seven DL's with the 2010 contract issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Box_O_Rocks

With the new wedge rules I'd be surprised to find a 'rookie' "upgrade" for Aiken in this draft, though there may be a couple kids his size who could be developed to fill his role. Based on the limited reps LeVoir took in relief of Light and Kaczur, we might find an upgrade amongst the top tackles, but it's not too likely past the Top Six.

The underlined players may not be as far out on the bubble as we might think. Ventrone has earned his spurs as a Special Teamer and I'll be watching preseason to see if there is any progress in his play as a Wide Receiver. LeKevin has developed nicely as a DE, there are some interesting prospects in this draft class, certainly you and I have agreed that a DE candidate is worth drafting ahead of Sey and Jarvis reaching UFA after the season, but unless they're drafting one high Smitty's primary competition is his linemate from Nebraska and Kenny Smith if he's re-signed. I found it encouraging to read the Belichick transcript where he corrected the interviewer by 'adding' Redd to the discussion on OLB, his potential to fill a power role in Willie Mac's footsteps greatly limits the prospects who might upgrade him.

There are missing players from your list whom I find interesting:

- Tully Banta-Cain
- Joey Galloway

bucky · 03-31-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Box_O_Rocks

With the new wedge rules I'd be surprised to find a 'rookie' "upgrade" for Aiken in this draft, though there may be a couple kids his size who could be developed to fill his role. Based on the limited reps LeVoir took in relief of Light and Kaczur, we might find an upgrade amongst the top tackles, but it's not too likely past the Top Six.

The underlined players may not be as far out on the bubble as we might think. Ventrone has earned his spurs as a Special Teamer and I'll be watching preseason to see if there is any progress in his play as a Wide Receiver. LeKevin has developed nicely as a DE, there are some interesting prospects in this draft class, certainly you and I have agreed that a DE candidate is worth drafting ahead of Sey and Jarvis reaching UFA after the season, but unless they're drafting one high Smitty's primary competition is his linemate from Nebraska and Kenny Smith if he's re-signed. I found it encouraging to read the Belichick transcript where he corrected the interviewer by 'adding' Redd to the discussion on OLB, his potential to fill a power role in Willie Mac's footsteps greatly limits the prospects who might upgrade him.

There are missing players from your list whom I find interesting:

- Tully Banta-Cain
- Joey Galloway

I think the point of MG's post is that there are plenty of opportunities for upgrade.

If the team finds a DL early, then LK Smith could be in trouble. If they find a TE, Thomas could be the guy. If it's a WR or RB, it's one of the skill position players.

I would also say that Crable, Wheatley, and Willhite are not exactly locks. Certainly they will be given every opportunity. But if Crable can't beat out Redd/TBC and the team drafts a day 1 rookie, I'd say Crable's days are numbered. Same for Wheatley - if he finds himself the 6th CB with no contribution on ST, BB may elect to cut his losses.

***mgteich*** · 03-31-2009, 11:19 AM

Has Belichick ever cut a #2, #3 or #4 before their second season? I strongly believe that Wheatley, Wilhite, and Crable will be given another year of development before deciding whether to "cut our losses". One year is just not enough, especially given their injuries.

Draftees (other than top 12 picks) are generally expected to compete by the middle of their second year, although we certainly need to start rookies sometimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky

I think the point of MG's post is that there are plenty of opportunities for upgrade.

If the team finds a DL early, then LK Smith could be in trouble. If they find a TE, Thomas could be the guy. If it's a WR or RB, it's one of the skill position players.

I would also say that Crable, Wheatley, and Willhite are not exactly locks. Certainly they will be given every opportunity. But if Crable can't beat out Redd/TBC and the team drafts a day 1 rookie, I'd say Crable's days are numbered. Same for Wheatley - if he finds himself the 6th CB with no contribution on ST, BB may elect to cut his losses.

bucky · 03-31-2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgteich

Has Belichick ever cut a #2, #3 or #4 before their second season? I strongly believe that Wheatley, Wilhite, and Crable will be given another year of development before deciding whether to "cut our losses". One year is just not enough, especially given their injuries.

Draftees (other than top 12 picks) are generally expected to compete by the middle of their second year, although we certainly need to start rookies sometimes.

Not technically "before their second season", but if they lose the competition in their second TC. There aren't a lot of guys like that historically, but Garrett Mills and Dexter Reid come to mind. Kareem Brown, IMO, was an exception.

There are also the proverbial "can't stay healthy" guys. They technically don't get cut in their second TC because they spend a major portion of a season on the IR. But they do get cut once they get healthy and can't quite cut it - guys like Gus Scott, Chad Jackson, Brock Williams.

This doesn't happen often and it's a tribute to the team that their able to draft and coach these guys into good players. But I just haven't seen enough from Crable and Wheatley to be sure that they don't fall into one of these 2 categories. Wilhite is probably the safest of the 3 given where he ended the year and that he's a ST contributor.

***mayoclinic*** · 03-31-2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakes781

We could, but I doubt it would last on page one very long. lol

You'd have to agree there's definitely a differing of opinions on the OLB class? So it's likely there's a similar debate ongoing within the Patriot's war room as well as many other's. If that's the case then why not take a position which isn't as deep like CB at #23? IMO Butler is that guy, but others may have Vontae Davis as that guy.

Exactly. And some may still prefer Alphonso Smith for his ball skills (and he's much more physical than Butler), and others may still prefer Sean Smith for his big CB upside and versatility. So we can see whether there's a correlation between the Barwin-Matthews-English-Sintim supporters and the Butler-Smith-Smith-Davis supporters.

bakes781 · 03-31-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayoclinic

Exactly. And some may still prefer Alphonso Smith for his ball skills (and he's much more physical than Butler), and others may still prefer Sean Smith for his big CB upside and versatility. So we can see whether there's a correlation between the Barwin-Matthews-English-Sintim supporters and the Butler-Smith-Smith-Davis supporters.

Yeah but when it comes to both I'm right when I say English and Butler will be better!

But seriously the combine really distinguished Butler in my eyes. I mean come on a 43" vertical!

***mayoclinic*** · 03-31-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakes781

Yeah but when it comes to both I'm right when I say English and Butler will be better!

But seriously the combine really distinguished Butler in my eyes. I mean come on a 43" vertical!

So he can jump high. That's nice. So could Hobbs. Here's the combine numbers for 2005, when Ellis Hobbs had the 4th highest vertical in the entire combine at 42" (2nd among CBs). He's an inch shorter than Butler, so I'll give Butler 2" vertical clearance on him. Hobbs' long jump, 40, 3-cone and 10 yard split were all in the same rough ballback as Butler - slightly worse in some areas, slightly better in others. And Hobbs was a very productive college CB, who was rated a 2nd rounder on many boards in 2005.

http://www.thehogs.net/Draft/combine...results-lb-db/

Butler is a nice player, but 1 interception in his last 17 games? And 4 passes broken up this year? I thought we wanted playmakers on defense. Also, Butler is not very physical, and not as strong in the run game as someone like Alphonso Smith, who make be an inch+ shorter but is much more physical and aggressive.

Again, nothing against Butler, just like I have nothing against English. But I'll take Barwin and Alphonso Smith over English and Butler any day. And I can find 5-10 players who are likely to be available at 23-34 who I would take over Butler given the need factor (Barwin, Beatty, Delmas, Gilbert, Maualuga at the very least).

***mayoclinic*** · 03-31-2009, 01:01 PM

Sorry, my links didn't work. Here they are:

NFL Combine - Results (LB, DB) -- breakaway beach
2005 NFL Combine Results - Players H-M