Barwin: positives and negatives - Page 3 - New England Patriots Forums

RayClay · 01-29-2009, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBruinz

Vrabel wasn't an OLB for the Steelers. He was a DE and they were running a 4-3 at the time, not a 3-4. Vrabel didn't move to 3-4 OLB until he got to the Patriots. And that was in 2002. After spending a year at the starting RDE. Colvin was trained to be a 4-3 OLB. So the switch was a bit easier.

But lets not forget that Bruschi actually went from DE to 4-3 OLB to 3-4 ILB. And, according to him, it took him 3 years to fully grasp his job as a 3-4 ILB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzPatsFan

As Belichick has said players making a position switch are less certain others. He doesn't gamble in Round One.
That is why he drafts DE-->OLBs later, and not in the first round.

To be fair, I added starters to AZs post. We have drafted Low round DEs, with limited success.

We didn't draft any low round or UDFA DEs and convert them to OLB starters in the Belichick (not Parcells) era. That's what I said.

Nothing you said refuted that.

You can argue with the guy who wrote this WIKI if you'd like, about Vrabel.

Quote:

At the end of Vrabel's tenure with the Steelers, it had mostly been an issue with the numbers game at linebacker, as the Steelers had veterans Jason Gildon and Earl Holmes firmly in as the starters as well as the emergence of Joey Porter at the position. Before leaving for New England, Steelers head coach Bill Cowher told Vrabel that while he believed Vrabel would be a starter in the NFL, he wouldn't be a starter with the Steelers.

Mike Vrabel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess you want to argue with this guy about Colvin

Quote:

LINEBACKER ROSEVELT COLVIN started his career in 1999 as an anonymous fourth-round pick of the Chicago Bears. The next season, he was overshadowed by rookie sensation Brian Urlacher.

This year, however, he's starting to make a name for himself as part of one of the NFL's best young linebacking crews.

Meet Urlacher's trusty sidekick. (Rising Star: Rosevelt Colvin). | Article from Football Digest | HighBeam Research

Quote:

Urlacher, from the pocket-sized city of Lovington, N.M., (population 9,471), may also have the perspective of the humble; he was drafted out of New Mexico in the first round, as the ninth pick over all in the 2000 draft, but the Bears slotted him as a strongside linebacker.

He had played that position in college, as well as safety, and was also a receiver and return specialist. But outside linebacker didn't work for him with the Bears.

''Rosie Colvin beat me out,'' Urlacher said, referring to linebacker Rosevelt Colvin.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=all

Bruschi is irrelevant to anything I said, he was drafted way back by Parcells.

***mayoclinic*** · 01-29-2009, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ochmed Jones

The question in my mind is can Barwin beat out Woods (unlikely) or Redd (more likely) on ST??

If he can then BB is afforded the luxury of developing Barwin and maybe using him a bit as a goal line TE, while NFL calibre players are manning the OLB starter spots.

At this point I see Barwin as more potential than ability. But BB once drafted Bethel Johnson in the second round based ebntirely on speed with very little production to backup using that high a draft pick.

I'm not sure I understand this. First, I think Barwin could be extremely productive as a situational pass rusher in addition to ST work while learning the intricacies of the OLB (or maybe even eventually SILB) position. Second, I don't understand the Bethel Johnson "entirely on speed with very little production comparison". Barwin's not a workout warrior with off the chart numbers and no production. He had 10 sacks through 11 games in his first season at DE, and was extremely productive in other regards. It may take him a while to learn LB in BB's system (it takes almost everyone a while to learn LB in BB's system, anyway; even AD admitted it was a big adjustment; Mayo and Guyton are the exceptions rather than the rule) but I don't see him being unproductive and I certainly don't see him as a Bethel Johnson type risk.

I would argue that with his versatility, intelligence, high motor and experience changing positions it may take Barwin less time to adapt to BB's system than an experienced LB succh as Maualuga who has not shown any instincts or any of the characteristics that would suggest he is likely to be able to grasp the nuances of BB's complex schemes.

MetalBleachers · 01-29-2009, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayoclinic

I'm not sure I understand this. First, I think Barwin could be extremely productive as a situational pass rusher in addition to ST work while learning the intricacies of the OLB (or maybe even eventually SILB) position. Second, I don't understand the Bethel Johnson "entirely on speed with very little production comparison". Barwin's not a workout warrior with off the chart numbers and no production. He had 10 sacks through 11 games in his first season at DE, and was extremely productive in other regards. It may take him a while to learn LB in BB's system (it takes almost everyone a while to learn LB in BB's system, anyway; even AD admitted it was a big adjustment; Mayo and Guyton are the exceptions rather than the rule) but I don't see him being unproductive and I certainly don't see him as a Bethel Johnson type risk.

I would argue that with his versatility, intelligence, high motor and experience changing positions it may take Barwin less time to adapt to BB's system than an experienced LB succh as Maualuga who has not shown any instincts or any of the characteristics that would suggest he is likely to be able to grasp the nuances of BB's complex schemes.

So where do you draft him? 2a or 2b?

***mayoclinic*** · 01-29-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalBleachers

So where do you draft him? 2a or 2b?

It's a little hard to say right now where he will fit on the Pats draft board, and also who else might be available around 2a, but that's where I've been tentatively putting him on my list. I could see if a top OL (such as William Beatty or Alex Mack) or DB fell to #47 holding off in the hope that he would still be available. But right now I think he would be a realistic option at #47 and if no one obviously much higher were available I'd hate to lose out on him merely on the hope that he might slip another 11 picks.

I do think that there's a much stronger possibility that the Pats trade up in the 2nd round than in the 1st. The cost is much lower, and there is likely to be near-1st round talent available through the mid-2nd round. We traded up from 52 to 36 in 2006 for our first 3rd round pick (#75, I think). I could see us trading up from around 58 to 50 (or from around 48 to 42) for our 4th round pick, particularly if we get a compensatory 4th for Randall Gay, if someone we wanted was available who we didn't think would last.

***patchick*** · 01-29-2009, 11:56 AM

New NFP ranking lists Barwin as the #9 DE...and #4 TE!

The National Football Post | NFP Prospect Position Rankings

MetalBleachers · 01-29-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patchick

New NFP ranking lists Barwin as the #9 DE...and #4 TE!

The National Football Post | NFP Prospect Position Rankings

I think this says more about finding college players for the 3-4 system than about Barwin.

I mentioned his bench press before and got grief, but I wasn't saying that his bench means everything (hello: Mike Kudla Bench Press), but that, in context, it can help determine his ability to set the edge.

Guyton, for example, had a weak bench (15) and proved in his play that he wasn't able to shed blocks when he started at OLB vs. the Seahawks (got replaced by Colvin). This thread is about Barwin's positives and negatives. A good showing at the combine would be a positive. That's alls I'm sayin.

***Box_O_Rocks*** · 01-29-2009, 09:38 PM

NFL Smackdown - Versatile Barwin Helps To Keep Going

Quote:

Versatile Barwin Helps To Keep Going

It's not that Connor Barwin didn't care about previous Senior Bowls. It's just that Barwin is used to having bigger things to worry about in January.

Much bigger. Like 7-foot-2 Roy Hibbert, then of Georgetown and now of the Indiana Pacers. And 7-foot-3 Hasheem Thabeet of UConn, coming soon to an NBA lottery team near you.

Barwin -- far from a giant at 6-foot-4 -- became a University of Cincinnati basketball player out of necessity in the winter of 2006. The Bearcats were short on bodies, and Barwin was a former high school basketball player who was asked to come in and be a linebacker-type player on the block.
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"I did play a little linebacker in high school, but that would in no way prepare me to do it in the NFL. I'm fast enough to do it, so we'll see. I just want to play."
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"I thought I learned a little pass-rush technique this year," Barwin said. "But then I spent three days earlier this month working with (longtime college and NFL coach) Rex Norris, and I came away thinking I have zero technique.

"Basically, I just run hard and try to get around the guy. The effort is there, but I have a lot to learn."

It's that type of effort -- and flexibility -- that's pushed Barwin to this point. During his high school days at Detroit Jesuit, he played lacrosse and hoped to be a scholarship basketball player before realizing there's no real demand for 6-foot-4 power forwards in big-time college basketball. So he chose to head down I-75 South and play football.

He was a backup and special teams player "who just went 100 miles an hour and hit whoever was in a different jersey" his first two football season at UC until he picked up a roughing the punter call in a nationally-televised game against Syracuse and proceeded to get a nationally-televised sideline lecture from then-head coach Mark Dantonio.

He didn't slow down, but he started playing smarter.

dryheat44 · 01-30-2009, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanked_as_usual

DB.....I dont believe this is true......the last time the steelers played 4-3, jack lambert was in the middle

Yep...the Steelers had him as a backup 3-4 DE. Basically, he was their Jarvis Green.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayoclinic

It's possible that the OLB position is already rebuilt, but it doesn't seem likely. Woods showed competence but no flashes of brilliance last year. Redd is still raw. And Crable didn't get enough playing time to show us much for certain.

Come on.....I realize that once players make the NFL draft status is irrelevant, but Pierre Woods and Vince Redd went undrafted for a reason....are we going to pass up on OLBs from now on because of the presence of Woods and Redd (and Crable) on the roster? They can definitely be improved on.

***DaBruinz*** · 01-30-2009, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayClay

To be fair, I added starters to AZs post. We have drafted Low round DEs, with limited success.

We didn't draft any low round or UDFA DEs and convert them to OLB starters in the Belichick (not Parcells) era. That's what I said.

Nothing you said refuted that.

Who said I was REFUTING anything that you posted other than Vrabel. I think that is an ignorant assumption on your part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayClay

You can argue with the guy who wrote this WIKI if you'd like, about Vrabel.

Mike Vrabel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess you want to argue with this guy about Colvin

Meet Urlacher's trusty sidekick. (Rising Star: Rosevelt Colvin). | Article from Football Digest | HighBeam Research

Why would I argue with the guy about Colvin. Colvin was a reserve DE to start while learning to play the OLB position.

PRO FOOTBALL; Urlacher Plays Key Role in the Bears' Turnaround - New York Times

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayClay

Bruschi is irrelevant to anything I said, he was drafted way back by Parcells.

Actually, the mention of Bruschi isn't irrelevant. It was mentioned as information about the transitioning of players from one position to another and the time it takes to do so. Now, its clear you think I was some how attacking you. I wasn't. But then, you must have a guilt complex or something, because you clearly thought otherwise.

***tanked_as_usual*** · 01-30-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dryheat44

Yep...the Steelers had him as a backup 3-4 DE. Basically, he was their Jarvis Green.

in vrabel's last year with the steelers, they were a 3-4 team with:

DL: aaron smith, kimo von oelhoffen, kevin henry
LB: gildon, kirkland, holmes, porter

their backups on the DL were chris sullivan, kedrick clancy, jeremy staat
their backups at LB were fiala, haggans, thompson, and vrabel

the steelers have been playing 3-4 longer than anyone