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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "OVER Loading at ANY position can create a Fatal Advantage. THAT is what interests ME. Attacking With Concentrated Force. THAT is what WINS. In the words ~ more or less ~ of General Patton: 'I'm fighting a WAR, here. Let the B*****ES worry about their FLANKS.' " - Off the Grid
"The key to any successful organization is to anticipate things, not react to them." - Michael Lombardi
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Re: The "245" Amorphous D ~ The Next Great Defense??
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayoclinic
I think that we are already seeing an unprecedented amount of creativity and versatility in the use of defensive personnel - especially front 6/7 personnel - in the college ranks. Alabama used to drop Marcell Dareus into coverage at times (as the Ravens have done with Haloti Ngata) and moved Dont'a Hightower all over the defense while coordinating multiple fronts.
...
Unless the NFL reverts to 15 defenders and we see 4-4-7 schemes, Darwinism will heavily favor prospects who are athletic, versatile, and smart enough to play multiple roles successfully.
I've been thinking about the decline of the so-called base defenses vis a vis the Pats' recent drafts. For instance, I loved Hightower in principle, but had semi-convinced myself that he wasn't a natural target for this team because he fit the classic 3-4 ILB prototype -- a role pretty nicely filled by Mayo, Spikes and Fletcher. Similarly, for the past few drafts people have been scanning closely for the classic 5-technique DE. But how much do those "classic" positions really exist at this point?
Perhaps I would have been better off thinking of Hightower as an uncommonly aware, heady, versatile player with a 'tweener physique, thus a Swiss army knife to serve multiple roles against the hurry-up. And while "the next Richard Seymour" would be a fabulous addition, isn't that because Seymour is a HOF-caliber player? Better, perhaps, to ask what "the next Bobby Hamilton" would add to the team.
I'm curious for others' thoughts about how the decline of the 7-man front has influenced who the Pats did and didn't take in recent drafts.
Re: The "245" Amorphous D ~ The Next Great Defense??
How about a Heisenberg Uncertainty Defense? You can either know WHERE they are OR how FAST they're going, but never BOTH!
Grid, you are truly a treasure on PatsFans. I bet Pherin, JCDavey, Gunnails, etc are jealous that they don't have an OTG equivalent on their Saints, Bolts or Jets fan boards.
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"These Patriots will forever go down as a team that belonged to Belichick and Tom Brady, though the club’s identity was formed just as much around people like Tedy Bruschi and Troy Brown. Those are the men who defined the Pats as much as anyone..." - Tony Mazz, 8/31/09
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Re: The "245" Amorphous D ~ The Next Great Defense??
Quote:
Originally Posted by TB146
How about a Heisenberg Uncertainty Defense? You can either know WHERE they are OR how FAST they're going, but never BOTH!
Grid, you are truly a treasure on PatsFans. I bet Pherin, JCDavey, Gunnails, etc are jealous that they don't have an OTG equivalent on their Saints, Bolts or Jets fan boards.
May The God Of Your Choice Bless You, Brother Tom!!
That was truly kind of you. Thanks, Man.
I can't wait to get some sleep and then circle back to this, tomorrow: Brother Mayo, Sister Patricia, and others had some posts I'm really looking forward to sinking my teeth into!!
And I'd also intended ~ before we got utterly SWAMPED where I work ~ to tie in a couple of the earlier Threads, perhaps even pulling a quote or two over: This is a vast, fascinating, and vitally important subject, in my view ~ how D's ~ and ours in particular!! ~ are going to react to this decade's dramatic changes in Rules and Regulations ~ and I'm really looking forward to joining in with the discussions that I've seen, hereabouts!!
__________________
Love HURTS!!
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It All Starts In The Trenches.
Run The Damned Ball.
Use The Whole Pig.
Develop & Deploy a Tenacious D!!
Drive the Enemy before you...and savor the Lamentations of their Women!!
*Editor's Note: As Always, the following Bits ~ or at least the intelligent parts!! ~ owe a Great Deal to the Author's extensive discussions with Brother MayoClinic, Fellow FootBall Fanatic!!
Amorphous D ~ Birth of A Bull Market of Deception!!
First ~ A bit of FootBall History, Ladies + Laddies:
It was in 1880 ~ 132 long and lustrous years ago ~ that the number of Players on the Field was reduced from 15...to 11.
And so the merciless + unrelenting Persecution of Defenses...began!!
"It Starts."
1880's dramatic Rule Change effected a substantial impact on the Game ~ in favor of the Offense, of course, as all such reductions in Personnel do ~ and consequently demanded not only that the remaining 11 Defenders become far Quicker and Craftier than before...but also that their Alignments become more Flexible, Unpredictable...and Deceptive.
And it established a Trend that has persisted to this very day.
For 132 years, the vast majority of the Paying Public ~ as well as the Innovators who crafted the Games's Evolution before there was a Paying Public ~ have displayed a relentless, ever-increasing appetite for Offense ~ along with a shamefully minimal appreciation for Defense!! ~ as a result of which the Trend of Change in the Game's Rules and Regulations, almost since the Game's very inception, has carved out a 132 Year Offensive Bull Market.
And there's no end in sight.
Time for a gratuitously + unnecessarily confusing + complicated Chart:
Points Per Game Since 1880:
The sad part is that I actually think I'm being funny.
So, yes: Virtually since The Dawn of FootBall, Defenses have adapted to this Relentless Persecution by becoming increasingly Quicker, Faster, Smaller, and Smarter...And Defensive Coordinators have indeed been compelled to forge Systems and Schemes that have become increasingly Flexible....and increasingly Unpredictable and Deceptive.
And as any Student of Warfare ~ or Football ~ will tell you: The more Flexible, Unpredictable, and Deceptive that you wish to be...the fewer Soldiers you should commit to The Front Line BEFORE the Inception of Battle.
Coach Amos Stagg ~ Revolutionary FREAK!!
In 1890, The GodFather of all FootBall Revolutionaries ~ Coach Amos Stagg of the SpringFieldYoung Men's Christian Association Training Center, which eventually became SpringField College ~ tore up the Competitive LandScape ~ one of about 8 million times he would do so ~ by trumping the classic "92" Defensive Formation with the introduction of the "722" ~ And in his spare time he played in the very first BasketBall game in History!!
This Relentless Persecution of Defenses would compel numerous Evolutions in Strategy and Scheme in the decades to come, as described eloquently yet understandably by Jene Bremel of the New York Times:
* In the late 1940's, Coach Greasy Neale of the Philadelphia Eagles forged a Dynasty with a dominant "524".
* But on Opening Day 1950, the 2 Time Defending World Champion Eagles were shredded by the phenomenal Tactics of Coach Paul Brown's CleveLand Browns...and the rest of the NFL scrambled, in more or less sheer panic, to try to find some way to combat this new and Revolutionary CleveLand Offense. The result: The "43".
* In the 1970's, we saw the rise of the "34". It receded in the 1980's, but is now rapidly taking over the Game.
Time for another gratuitously complex + complicated Chart to illustrate the Point:
Number of Base Defensive Down Linemen Since 1880:
Yes, but at least I'm amusing myself.
So I've got that going for me.
Which is nice.
1880 ~ 11 Men on the Line of Scrimmage in Base Defense.
2011 ~ 3 or 4.
You, um...get the picture.
What Does The Future Hold?
The Running Game hasn't been outlawed ~ yet ~ so it might be a bit premature, at this point, to field 11 CornerBacks.
But we're seeing the first signs, ere the last few years, of even Smaller, more Flexible, and less Decipherable Defenses gaining Market Share with some of the bolder, more creative Defensive Coordinators and Head Coaches:
Mind you: all of these are instances of the "155" and the "245" being employed as Sub Packages.
Nobody's talking about installing the "155" or the "245" as a Base Package.
Well, except for me.
Well otg, I respect what you have to say, as I can generally agree with your argument. However, your nobody is talking argument... http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-....php?p=3071988 ...I was referred to rolling into another thread, where all you did was directly suggest a 155 (with Vince as your one and a strong flexible five, sign me up...) and changed amoeba to amorphus. While you (in no way argue this point) hold the greater general knowledge, we have been mentioning this for a while. Go ahead, look me up. I'm somewhere claiming spikes is draft replacement, predraft. I never said Hightower because I never thought we would trade up...BB history. I have also said for a while is about to time to trade in (draft surplus that is), as many have been wildly speculating since mayo under the assumption there is bound to be a year or two against norm.
I love the less players more disguise aspect, and I feel this is where bb had been moving the d. Lon at the recent additions...I know I was pining for haynesworth/Vince simply on the idea of a two man dominant base to provide help to a weak lb core. Again search it, I know I loved the pick up and would back the risk reward again in a shortened season with a hole at dl... Hell, give me a past producer as AH and a similar situation and I would sign off immediately assuming a VW type dt to pair. The upside is too spectacular...look at ray Lewis' success.
Now look at our draft...bequette/jones...d-end olb tweeners, both at different, complimenting levels I'd the spectrum. Hightower gets added to spikes and mayo, pre loaded with some de experience...Vince, fanene...I am in live with this defense, and expect it to live up to the earlier decades precedent. Difference is bb figured out how to manage a top 5 o while building a fantastic group of YOUNG, SKILLED, players on d. Next year we go dt ol in the first four rounds, with one db, plus one bpa/trade out.
Again, I love hearing your opinion, this time however, you are off base (only in so much as nobody has said it).
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"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."
Re: The "245" Amorphous D ~ The Next Great Defense??
It's very late and will have to revisit this thread tomorrow when I am more coherent.
A couple of points this evening, the OP in terms of presentation & content is as good as any I have ever seen in the History of PatsFans, huge hat tip to the Almighty Gridmaster.
When loooking at prospective rosters I have been selecting 10 and considering 11 DB's. I think that our 'base' D most weeks will include 5 DB's.
I have seen a mix of at least 6 CB on the roster for this reason. I could see W Allen ending up as one of the Safties.
As to the front, last year we saw a hybrid front that mixed single and two gap on the same play. If we have the correct talent on the roster we can have the flexibility to confuse the QB reads and blocking schemes as to who is coming to rush and from where.
In the front Wilfolk is the key is ability to control 2 gaps ans occupt at least 2 OL on each play goves BB the opportuniyt to use other OL for penatration as happened with A Carter last year.
P Kirwan in the Pats preview last week talked about C Jones, Hightower and Bequette projecting into (in order) Willie MAc, TedyB & M Vrabel. One of the things about these players was their ability to be both DL + LB roles (with off the chart football IQ's) We haven't had players Who had those skills to confuse the QB and OL calls in awhile. Hope we have it this year.
With the off season moves this is perhaps the most excited I have been about the Pats prospects ever.
__________________
"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."
Re: The "245" Amorphous D ~ The Next Great Defense??
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdangle
Basically it seems like your saying sub packages are now the norm, no matter what you call them. Not really breaking news. However I'd be more inclined to say the NFL has become a matchup game on D. If your opponent is a smash mouth run heavy yet efficient team (relative to league averages I mean), I'm not quite sure a 245 would be the Next Great D to stop it.
You need to have the best personnel to scheme across multiple styles, with ability to execute it at high level, intelligence to quickly implement (which usually hinges on basic high football IQ) , and of course the field general to pull it all together and change it on the fly. That's the best D to stop that weeks oppopnent, no matter what you decide to call it that week.
Or in other words, a D that can equally dominate in 3-4, 4-3, Nick, Dime, Quarter and Hyrbrid/Amorphous... Now THAT'S the next great D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patchick
I've been thinking about the decline of the so-called base defenses vis a vis the Pats' recent drafts. For instance, I loved Hightower in principle, but had semi-convinced myself that he wasn't a natural target for this team because he fit the classic 3-4 ILB prototype -- a role pretty nicely filled by Mayo, Spikes and Fletcher. Similarly, for the past few drafts people have been scanning closely for the classic 5-technique DE. But how much do those "classic" positions really exist at this point?
Perhaps I would have been better off thinking of Hightower as an uncommonly aware, heady, versatile player with a 'tweener physique, thus a Swiss army knife to serve multiple roles against the hurry-up. And while "the next Richard Seymour" would be a fabulous addition, isn't that because Seymour is a HOF-caliber player? Better, perhaps, to ask what "the next Bobby Hamilton" would add to the team.
I'm curious for others' thoughts about how the decline of the 7-man front has influenced who the Pats did and didn't take in recent drafts.
BB spoke pretty openly after the draft about how much time the team spent in "sub packages" and how the game was getting more spread out, and how that influenced the direction the team went in the draft. So I think that was a major factor. Though I agree with pdangle's assessment as well regarding the ability to play multiple schemes and vary the amount of 5, 6, and 7 man fronts depending on the offensive strengths of the opposing team. So I think that BB was strongly influenced towards guys who fit in a 6 man "base", but also wanted guys who had schematic versatility.
I also think that BB has always been more flexible than the majority of the league to build his defense around his players' strengths, rather than force fit players into a given approach. If we had Richard Seymour and Ty Warren in their prime next to Vince Wilfork circa 2006 I think we'd be playing a lot more 3 of a 3 man base, regardless of the number of DBs on the field. I think BB tends to identify his core players and build around their strengths. If they can do multiple things, then that opens up other options. Vince Wilfork's maturation into more than "just" a dominant 3-4 NT combined with the loss of Seymour and the atrophy of Warren's health and skills all contributed to moving away from a pure 3-4 base. With Wilfork heading towards the downside of his career - a terrible but necessary thought to contemplate - and Seymour and Warren gone, and with Mayo, Spikes and hopefully Jones and Hightower as the future core of the front 6/7, I'm assuming BB will want to build around those guys' skill sets. Unless BB envisions Jones and Hightower as predominantly 3-4 OLBs with Mayo and Spikes inside, I don't see him focusing on a traditional 3-4 base as much as he did from 2003-2009 or to prioritize drafting prototypical 3-4 DEs in the future, though I'm sure we'll still play some 3-4 and he will want guys who have the ability to play that role.
As for Hightower, I tend to think of him as hopefully becoming what Adalius Thomas should have been - a Swiss Army knife kind of guy who can play all over the front 6/7 in multiple schemes and fronts, and with the kind of leadership skills and processing/coordination capability to help function as an on field defensive coordinator. That's a lot to ask for, and he could end up doing much less than that and still be an outstanding pick, but a guy who can play that kind of role would have tremendous value in a multiple front hybrid defense - which seems to be the kind of role and value he had for Nick Saban at Alabama.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "OVER Loading at ANY position can create a Fatal Advantage. THAT is what interests ME. Attacking With Concentrated Force. THAT is what WINS. In the words ~ more or less ~ of General Patton: 'I'm fighting a WAR, here. Let the B*****ES worry about their FLANKS.' " - Off the Grid
"The key to any successful organization is to anticipate things, not react to them." - Michael Lombardi
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Re: The "245" Amorphous D ~ The Next Great Defense??
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