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Re: Pat Kirwan: The Patriots and the 'Big Nickel Defense'
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayoclinic
I'm a big Pat Kirwan fan, but to be honest I was a little disappointed by this article. I didn't think it added much to the basic fact that defenses are struggling with the combination of the spread offsense and the big, versatile TEs who can overpower DBs and outpace LBs. If the Jets really think that LaRon Landry and Yeremiah Bell are the answer to Gronk and Hernandez, I can't wait to see what happens.
The word "hybrid" is used a lot these days, but clearly it seems like defenses need big, physical guys with size and movement skills. I call them "raptors" for lack of a better term. From this point of view you can look at the Pats' secondary and see that there are an awful lot of guys with decent size (5'10"-6'2" and around 190-205#) who are physical enough to play safety and quick enough to play CB: Devin McCourty, Ras-I Dowling, Kyle Arrington, Tavon Wilson, Steven Gregory, Sterline Moore, Alfonzo Dennard, Will Allen. That's 8 guys with tremendous positional versatility. Pat Chung is really the only "traditional" safety with any significant role. I personally think that that kind of approach is more likely to be successful than trying to ask guys like Landry to cover.
If you liked Kirwan's article, Jeff Chadiha from ESPN had a really great article last year on the evolution of the safety position:
Among other things, Chadiha talks about the TE dilemma and dealing with offensive mis-matches:
Guys like Brandon Hardin (6'3" 217# with 4.38 speed and a 6.8 3-cone) are exactly that kind of "2-guard" option that Gonzalez was talking about. Hardin was taken in the 3rd round after being initially considered a late round prospect.
This discussion may also explain why the Pats "reached" for Tavon Wilson in the 2nd round - guys with actual safety experience with the kind of quickness and man coverage ability needed are rare birds. One can argue that neither Mark Barron nor Harrison Smith actually fits that prescription, which is partly why I wasn't as enthusiastic about those guys as man others on this board. Tavon Wilson arguably does, which could make him a very valuable asset. If not, there are 7 other guys currently on the roster with some combination of those skills.
Nice post. Once again the more we get to know about the thought process of what teams are actually thinking, the more sense the Tavon Wilson pick makes.
Though I have to tell you made a great case for Brandon Hardin. I kind of like the idea of a 6'3 217 pounder with 4.3 speed and a great cone time roaming our secondary. I would have to guess the Pats liked Wilson's experience and football instincts better.
However I totally disagree with Kirwin when he says safeties are becoming the FB's of the secondary. On the contrary, I think safeties have and will become even more important to defenses if teams are going to have any hope of slowing down the wave of athletic TEs coming into the league. The only thing that will chance is our expectations of what a safety can do, and (if the past draft taught us anything) the skill sets teams will be looking for.
Last edited by patfanken; 05-22-2012 at 02:23 PM..
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Re: Pat Kirwan: The Patriots and the 'Big Nickel Defense'
Quote:
Originally Posted by patfanken
Once again the more we get to know about the thought process of what teams are actually thinking, the more sense the Tavon Wilson pick becomes. Though I have to tell you made a great case for Brandon Hardin. I kind of like the idea of a 6'3 217 pounder with 4.3 speed and a great cone time roaming our secondary. I would have to guess the Pats liked Wilson's experience and football instincts better.
I loved Hardin's upside and physical skill set. If you look at Ye Old Mock Draft thread, I had the Pats doubling up with Trumaine Johnson and Brandon Hardin as big, physical DBs with CB/FS versatility:
At the beginning of April Hardin was #182 in my mock (post #916), and by draft time I'd moved him up to #109. The Bears took him at #79, illustrating the demand for big DBs with the combination of size and movement skills to play a hybrid role. Again, it doesn't make the Tavon Wilson pick look like quite so much a "reach".
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "OVER Loading at ANY position can create a Fatal Advantage. THAT is what interests ME. Attacking With Concentrated Force. THAT is what WINS. In the words ~ more or less ~ of General Patton: 'I'm fighting a WAR, here. Let the B*****ES worry about their FLANKS.' " - Off the Grid
"The key to any successful organization is to anticipate things, not react to them." - Michael Lombardi
Re: Pat Kirwan: The Patriots and the 'Big Nickel Defense'
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayoclinic
Yeah, that's part of why I wasn't overly impressed with that particular article. It takes a heck of a lot more than throwing 3 safeties out there. James Ihedigbo and 5'8" Jm Leonard are not the answer to Gronk and Hernandez.
The answer would be a combination of Diggy's size and Leonhard's instincts & (former) agility.
But as Patchick pointed out about Nate Ebner, coming form a contact sport background is a huge advantage when transitioning to football. Ebner's combination of movement skills and physicality are part of what make him very intriguing as a developmental DB.
And if Ebner does show some potential at Safety, then I hope we can waive G'Bye to Slater,
who has zero potential at any position.
Re: Pat Kirwan: The Patriots and the 'Big Nickel Defense'
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain stone
And if Ebner does show some potential at Safety, then I hope we can waive G'Bye to Slater,
who has zero potential at any position.
Not happening. Slater is an All-Pro ST and well deserved. He adds gr8 value to this team and is usually the first person on the scene in punt returns, limiting the return. I really look forward to having Ebner make the team as well, and joining Slater as twin special teams terrors.
You may have noticed that Gostkowski, Mesko, and Aiken aren't offering much potential at other positions either.
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Re: Pat Kirwan: The Patriots and the 'Big Nickel Defense'
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain stone
And if Ebner does show some potential at Safety, then I hope we can waive G'Bye to Slater, who has zero potential at any position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gr8est
Not happening. Slater is an All-Pro ST and well deserved. He adds gr8 value to this team and is usually the first person on the scene in punt returns, limiting the return. I really look forward to having Ebner make the team as well, and joining Slater as twin special teams terrors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanvamp
It is my understanding that Slater is perhaps the very best special teams player in football.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frezo
Who was the ST captain last year?
No player is untouchable on the Pats. When someone provides better value than Slater on ST, or similar ST value but better positional value, then Slater will be at jeapordy of being cut. Although Slater was ST captain, so was Sam Aiken in 2009, and that didn't stop the Pats from cutting Aiken in training camp in 2010.
WIth that said, Slater being cut is almost certainly not going to happen this year. In addition to being a team captain and leader of the unit, Slater was 1st team All Pro as a STer last year, so the bar is set awfully high for a rookie to displace him. And as the Gr8est notes, there's plenty of potential for Ebner and Slater to wreck havoc on ST.
All things considered, I think it's much more likely that Ebner competes this year for a 9th DB/ST position, and the guy who he would potentially knock off the roster is someone like Josh Barrett, Malcolm Williams or Marquice Cole, all of whom are excellent STers. That's going to be enough of a challenge for Ebner this year. At least for 2012, I don't think Ebner is any threat to Slater's job security.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "OVER Loading at ANY position can create a Fatal Advantage. THAT is what interests ME. Attacking With Concentrated Force. THAT is what WINS. In the words ~ more or less ~ of General Patton: 'I'm fighting a WAR, here. Let the B*****ES worry about their FLANKS.' " - Off the Grid
"The key to any successful organization is to anticipate things, not react to them." - Michael Lombardi
Re: Pat Kirwan: The Patriots and the 'Big Nickel Defense'
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain stone
And if Ebner does show some potential at Safety, then I hope we can waive G'Bye to Slater,
who has zero potential at any position.
I don't know why you insist on beating what you know is a dead horse. Slater just signed a contract with a $2 million signing bonus. Barring some type of disaster, he's on the team.
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Re: Pat Kirwan: The Patriots and the 'Big Nickel Defense'
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain stone
And if Ebner does show some potential at Safety, then I hope we can waive G'Bye to Slater,
who has zero potential at any position.
Ebner's best spot this season is the PS. We have acquired a LOT of very good ST's players this off season to go along with the people we already have. I agree that Ebner is a special talent but virtually Stephen Neal raw. It would be best if he started to learn the S position on the PS for a season.
IT would be best for Ebert too, to have a year on the PS. 5 roster spots for rookies this season is stretching the limit. I think these 2 guys were draft THIS season to replace the 2 picks we are missing next season. NEXT season these 2 guys will come back with a REAL chance to make the roster. Much like Markelle Carter will have this season
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Re: Pat Kirwan: The Patriots and the 'Big Nickel Defense'
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