Moss '07-09 or Gronk right now: which player is/was more valuable to the offense? - Page 5 - New England Patriots Forums

Dutchmaster617 · 01-16-2012, 05:27 PM

Moss - 24 TDs in 19 games
Gronk - 20 TDs in 17 games

He probably will set the record.

brdmaverick · 01-16-2012, 05:35 PM

Just think, together Gronk and Hernandez are exactly what we dreamed Daniel Graham and Ben Watson would be.

jeffbiologist · 01-16-2012, 09:39 PM

I dont think this should be close at all. Moss in his prime took a safety out of the middle of the field and opened it up for players like Welker. Gronk is more effectively using space alongside Welker and if it werent for his RAC the inside game will always be just the inside game. Moss opened up more of the field for his team mates, Gronk's success isnt leading to career years for any WR is he? You could argue Hernandez, but his role is more along the line of FB/TE rather than TE/WR right? Moss' threat on the field led directly to the development of Welker's role.

RoughingthePasser · 01-16-2012, 09:41 PM

Rob Gronkowski.

Yfz01 · 01-16-2012, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robertweathers

Jeff George was always somewhat of a enigma but he had a couple of other years that were just as good, if not better than his year in MN.

Cunningham was a different QB in MN. He stayed in the pocket more and never had as many offensive weapons available to him. He had just as productive years in Philly.

Culpepper's best year came when Moss was hobbling on a bad ankle and shoulder and needed to distribute the ball more.

Same goes for Brady. His highest TD year was 07 but I'd argue that his years in '10 and '11 were better.

Stats show QBs had good years with Randy but they also had good years without him.

Jeff George never had a better year than with Minnesota. You gotta remember, he didn't start at the beginning of the season, but his per game numbers were better than ever before. The next year he went to Washington (?) and fell back into mediocrity.

Cunningham only put up the numbers because of a great offensive line, a strong running game, and three great WR's. I truly believe an elite quarterback like Brady would have put up numbers that far surpassed his.

Culpepper was putting up unreal numbers (as was Moss) until Moss got injured against the Saints (I believe). Culpepper put up good numbers in two of the next three weeks w/o Moss, but they were against the 30th and 32nd rated pass defenses. Again, he was on an unreal pace before the Moss injury.

2000-2004 Moss is the best WR I have ever seen. As for the question, I think it's pretty even. Gronk & Hernandez >>> Moss though.

strngplyr · 01-16-2012, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffbiologist

Gronk's success isnt leading to career years for any WR is he?

Wes Welker would certainly argue against this absurd point.

In 2011 Welker had 122 receptions. Just 1 shy of his previous high, 123. He had 1,569 yards, his previous high was 1,348 and he had 9 touchdowns, beating his previous high of 8.

Both Aaron and Rob nearly doubled (Nearly tripled, for Rob actually) their production from last season, and while Aaron is also an incredibly talented TE, his success has a lot to do with extra attention going to Gronkowski.

SammyBlueCat · 01-16-2012, 11:18 PM

Add another vote for Gronk... Moss was over 30 when he arrived and ran hot & cold. Gronk is just getting fired up.

Grizzafted · 01-17-2012, 05:11 AM

if you're talking, pure talent at the position....I think it's Moss. If he had played with Brady his whole career his numbers would have been astonishing.

But in terms of VALUE....its Gronk by a mile. It's a mismatch thing. Next year you're going to see some crazy defenses.....next year, what am I talking about. NEXT WEEK. They're going to have Ed Reed basically play CB on Gronkowski, which is going to open things up for Hernandez and Branch.

randomk1 · 01-17-2012, 05:30 AM

Ah c'mon guys...if we replaced Gronk with a prime Moss right now you honestly believe this offense suffers? With AH and Welker working over the middle + Branch? I honestly think it's a new NFL record for points scored.

If we happen to lose to one of the Ds i expect alot of the "we need a deep threat!" cries to come out. If we do lose then we already know how it's going down.

Randy Moss 2003 Vikings Mix - YouTube

robertweathers · 01-17-2012, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yfz01

Jeff George never had a better year than with Minnesota. You gotta remember, he didn't start at the beginning of the season, but his per game numbers were better than ever before. The next year he went to Washington (?) and fell back into mediocrity. .

Just because a QB has better per-game numbers, doesn't mena he had a better year. See Brady '10.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yfz01

Cunningham only put up the numbers because of a great offensive line, a strong running game, and three great WR's. I truly believe an elite quarterback like Brady would have put up numbers that far surpassed his..

That is not the debate. The question is did Moss directly make the QB better. For RC, he was a decent QB before he got to MN and as you point out, had a ton of other offensive weapons to work with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yfz01

Culpepper was putting up unreal numbers (as was Moss) until Moss got injured against the Saints (I believe). Culpepper put up good numbers in two of the next three weeks w/o Moss, but they were against the 30th and 32nd rated pass defenses. Again, he was on an unreal pace before the Moss injury...

...and he continued to play well w/o Moss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yfz01

2000-2004 Moss is the best WR I have ever seen. As for the question, I think it's pretty even. Gronk & Hernandez >>> Moss though.

Moss is the greatest talent but Jerry Rice was a better all-around WR.