Shockt327

Disclaimer: I'm strictly talking about Nink as a DE. Not as a LB. This is not a hate thread for Ninkovich. I think he's a good LB. He's tough and scrappy and can make plays...

But he really can't line up in a 3 point stance and get constant penetration. He just can't. He frequently gets stonewalled. Badly. I frequently look for Anderson during the games (he's quickly becoming my favorite player on D). But when he's not out there, it's almost always because Nink is in his place when they go to a Nickel D.

I believe it's a holdover from the 3-4. BB used to use his LBs, like Vrabel or McGinest as DEs in the Nickel; and they were a threat to drop into coverage. It's good in theory, but with Nink it really doesn't work well. He just doesn't have the quick burst, power, and moves to be an effective pass rusher out as a DE in the 3-pt-stance.

I really think Anderson's lack of playing time is a huge reason why the D isn't consistent. The guy needs more reps.

EDIT: Yeah, I know Nink had a sack last Sunday. I feel like someone will throw that in my face. But really, if you watch him play as a DE, he's really getting no penetration at all.

Sciz

We're best off not questioning anything Belichick did on Sunday, because we probably won't see a lot of it ever again.

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Shockt327

This has kinda been a year long thing, though....

Except it wasn't just last Sunday; Nink has seen pretty consistent reps as a DE in the Nickel this season.

It seems like Anderson will occasionally get a series or two to do his thing. When he does, I think it's a major step up. The KC game was the only one where it seemed like Anderson got a bulk of the snaps.

The pass rush looks so good when he gets consistent reps. I notice that the oppositions will frequently shift coverage to his side, and it really does free up Carter. Having two legit pass rushers makes the D so much better.

TheTruth3402

My guess is that it has to do with 'scheme diversity'. When you see Carter on the field as an offense, you know he is going to rush. The same applies for Anderson. With Ninkovich, he has some skill in coverage, so he represents a wild card.

If this is the logic, I don't like it. Ninkovich is certainly not a terrible rusher, but I do not feel that he is as good as Anderson in pure pass rush ability based solely on the eye test. IMO, given the choice excelling in the pass rush outweighs versatility on the edge. But, seriously, what do I know?

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Long time Pats fan. Longer time Celts fan.

JFK

Nink is a terrible pass rusher. I notice it too.

Patspsycho

Ninko's job as the hybrid DE in the nickel package (on pass plays) is to occupy the lineman. If he manages to get loose and get to the QB, that's icing on the cake, but his primary job is to tie up the blocker, to contain the pocket, seal the edge or prevent the kick out block.

Yes it's that same old prevent D that a lot of posters love to hate, but statistically speaking, over the long run, that strategy will win out more often than not. And especially so, since I can count on one hand, the number of QB's in this league who have the mental toughness, patience, and accuracy to defeat this type of system.

You can tell that by what he does with his hands when occupying the lineman; he frequently squares up to his man, and doesn't use moves that one-gapping players would use (swim, rip, spin, etc) to get by his man and get to the QB.

Shockt327

Except he really is.

TheTruth3402

Not many good statistics available to back up these arguments.

Here is what I've found: (snaps are through 11 because I couldn't find info from the Fins game)

Ninkovich-
646 snaps (11 games)
54 tackles
2 fumbles recovered
0 fumbles forced
1 run stuff
4.5 sacks
9 QB hits

Anderson-
264 snaps (11 games)
18 tackles
0 fumbles recovered
1 fumble forced
0 run stuffs
7 sacks
9 QB hits

There is no way for me to determine how many snaps Ninkovich is a pass rusher vs linebacker, but if we divide his snap count in half, that would give him about 60 more snaps at rush end. That would lead me to determine that Anderson has been the more effective player when given the opportunity, but that is purely conjecture.

Does anyone else know where I might find some better stats?

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robertweathers

No but nice work. I think 99.9% of the posters would say that Anderson is a better pass rusher than Nink.

What they would also say that Nink is a more well-rounded defensive player.

However, for those that say Nink is a terrible pass rusher I think it a bit of an overstatement. Pass rushing isn't all about moves. It also about using good body leverage to collapse the pocket, your hands to slide the defensive player in the direction you need (sometimes to re-route a running play to someone like Wilfork) and lastly, have an understanding of where the QB NEEDS to go (up, left, right, etc). While I would agree that Nink isn't on the same tier as Anderson or Carter, I think by evidence of 4 sacks last year and 4.5 this year, the guy knows somewhat how to get to the QB. He just doesn't have the explosiveness or the quickness that the Julius Peppers of the world have.

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Shockt327

I hate it when people do this. This post makes no sense. You are taking terminology, misusing it, and then applying a whole new definition to it.

1) No it isn't the "same old prevent Defense." That's not what a prevent is at all. You are using the term as if it is somehow synonymous with another signifier like "2-gap." That's not what a prevent is. It's not a season long strategy.

2) "Occupy a lineman" on a pass play? Again, that makes absolutely no sense. I'm sure you've come across the phrase "occupy the gap" in your time on these boards. Again, you're incorrectly regurgitating it.

3) Occupying the gap (not a lineman!) is not an excuse to avoid rushing the passer -- nor is it "icing on the cake." If you seriously think there that little emphasis on rushing the passer; then you are just totally clueless. This isn't even up for debate. As before, you are making some semblance of sense when you talk about the need to "set the edge" as a DE.....and then totally abandoning logic when you continue to explain. Never in a million years does that somehow mean there isn't a need for a DE to rush the QB. That's just patently absurd.

EDIT: Putting all the pieces together; you are actually attempting to argue that only elite QBs can beat a defense that plays a prevent in regular situations, and would rather have both DEs "occupy a lineman" rather than actually pressuring the QB. LOL.