OT: Would you ever hold out? - Page 11 - New England Patriots Forums

eom · 08-09-2011, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradyFTW!

That actually is a breach of contract (see: Ricky Williams). A holdout is not.

And if the holdout refuses to return?

***patchick*** · 08-09-2011, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Irae

Well, your either/or interpretation is much more in line with criminal law.

When you have something that's written into a contract as a penalty clause, it's generally done to avoid a breach. You don't do that because something is considered absolutely impermissible. You do that because you don't want it to be a deal breaker. Something that's truly impermissible leads to a voiding/cancelling/breach of the contract.

Owners, and the league, are against holdouts. Players want to keep holdouts as a negotiating tool, at least to the degree that they aren't willing to have them completely barred. The penalties and rules are a negotiated compromise.

OK, we're in a complicated area here...I thought the individual player contracts required attendance/participation, and the collective bargaining agreement dictated how the team could seek redress in the case that a player was in breach. But I have to admit, the status of individual employment contracts under a cba is confusing to me.

***BradyFTW!*** · 08-09-2011, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eom

Per the cba ---- what are the penalties imposed on a team for cutting a player.

Maybe I can learn something in this thread.

Salary cap ramifications are a competitive penalty, and a disincentive for releasing productive players.

***BradyFTW!*** · 08-09-2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eom

And if the holdout refuses to return?

Once again, see Ricky Williams for precedent. Provided that the team has adequately protected itself within the contract, the player will be required to return all or part of his signing bonus. If you're asking how I feel about that, I'm fine with it. It's in the contract.

***patchick*** · 08-09-2011, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eom

I think itms telling that you disparage people for 'siding with billionaires' when most just refer to them as 'owners'.
What does their bank account relative to yours have to do with the discussion?

And the mirror image is the people saying that players have no business holding out, or even complaining, because they make so much money even on minimum salary.

I wonder what the cutoff is, the income level where you cede your right to defend your own interests?

***Wolfpack*** · 08-09-2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eom

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure players are free to leave the nfl any time they like.

Like I said in my other post (and contrary to what Adrian Peterson thinks) the players are not slaves and they are free to leave.

However, the key words in my sentence is that few NFL players are free to leave WITHOUT ANY CONSEQUENCES. Most players would find themselves sued pretty quickly for a return of their signing bonus if they ever decided to up and quit. Ricky Williams is a perfect example of this. It was originally going to cost him about $8 million to leave the NFL before other deals and compromises were reached.

Legally, Williams was free to leave. He wasn't going to be arrested or sent to jail. But there are definite financial consequences to walking away from a contract midterm.

NovaScotiaPatsFan · 08-09-2011, 02:12 PM

Ok, I've started the bar fight, now I'm slipping out the back door...

***Deus Irae*** · 08-09-2011, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eom

I'd be curious to see how many people would support a player pocketing a 20m bonus on a 5 yr deal then immediately retiring and keeping the bonus.

You might wish to look back at examples like Barry Sanders to gain some insight here.

The Scrizz · 08-09-2011, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Well they're not slaves despite what Adrian Peterson says so yes they can walk away. But very few of them can walk away without consequence. Many would owe money back to the team like when Ricky Williams tried to leave the Dolphins.

And fact is very few people in the workforce are under contract. The overwhelming majority are free to come and go wherever they want.
I like the current structure of the NFL, far moreso than the other sports. I like the fact that contracts aren't guaranteed. I'm just accurately pointing out that teams can cut players whenever they want. Your denial of this fact does nothing to change it.

And for you to get on your high horse and talk about what you would do when it's a situation you've never even remotely been near is silly.

I'm sorry, I believe the question posed by the original poster was "Would you ever hold out?"

Are only people who say yes allowed to comment, or is believing you should honor a contract "being on my high horse"? I've never murdered anyone but if someone put up a poll asking if you would murder someone, I would climb upon my horse once again and say no. What a moralist prude I am.

I don't think you know what accurate means, btw. I never said a team can't cut a player. I said that their right to do so is in fact part of the contract. It isn't a difficult distinction to grasp.

The Scrizz · 08-09-2011, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Like I said in my other post (and contrary to what Adrian Peterson thinks) the players are not slaves and they are free to leave.

However, the key words in my sentence is that few NFL players are free to leave WITHOUT ANY CONSEQUENCES. Most players would find themselves sued pretty quickly for a return of their signing bonus if they ever decided to up and quit. Ricky Williams is a perfect example of this. It was originally going to cost him about $8 million to leave the NFL before other deals and compromises were reached.

Legally, Williams was free to leave. He wasn't going to be arrested or sent to jail. But there are definite financial consequences to walking away from a contract midterm.

Yes because they took money upfront! If you went to your company and they gave you an advance on your salary they could come back and sue you for it if you quit tomorrow. Or suppose they send you to school on the condition that you stay with them for 'x' years afterward. They could come after you for the tuition if you reneged.

Why? Because all of these things are written into the contract! If they weren't the teams would be SOL. The players are in no different spot than anybody else who breaches their contract in any field of work.