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I've seen all but 1 Patriots game, and I've seen about half the Giants games. As for getting pressure, you seem to be confused. However, I did type that badly, so I can see your confusion. What I meant, and what that post looks like does differ. I meant it as "New England gets almost as much pressure with 3 players on the line as the Giants get with 4". That's the difference between a 4-3 and a 3-4, but I should have been more explicit.
My apologies for my poor typing in that post. However, the Giants' pass rush is still not 'significantly better' than the Patriots' pass rush. The difference is that the Giants get more of their sacks from their D-linemen, while the Patriots get more of their sacks from the linebacker that attacks, and from the pass rushing specialist known as Jarvis Green.
Having said that, the notion that the pass rush is this defense's biggest weakness is just nowhere near accurate. This defense's biggest weakness if the pass defense of the two interior linebackers and the two safeties.
I just wholeheartedly disagree. Just look at the last NE/NY game. They both got one sack, but NY was in Brady's face all game long while NE didn't lay a hand on Manning until most of the way through the 3rd quarter when they rushed 7 guys. Even after that, despite blitzing repeatedly from then on, NE rarely put much pressure on Eli.
Vrabel had a dominant run around mid-season, but aside from that NE has been inconsistent at rushing the passer. They seem to be good at taking the guy down when they get there but they don't get there very often. It is what it is. There is nothing that will convince me that NE's pass rush is anywhere near the level of NY's.
__________________ "They have one objective," said Washington cornerback Shawn Springs. "They whoop people's [backsides]. If you understand that, it answers all your questions. They might not lose [this year]."
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I just wholeheartedly disagree. Just look at the last NE/NY game. They both got one sack, but NY was in Brady's face all game long while NE didn't lay a hand on Manning until most of the way through the 3rd quarter when they rushed 7 guys. Even after that, despite blitzing repeatedly from then on, NE rarely put much pressure on Eli.
Vrabel had a dominant run around mid-season, but aside from that NE has been inconsistent at rushing the passer. They seem to be good at taking the guy down when they get there but they don't get there very often. It is what it is. There is nothing that will convince me that NE's pass rush is anywhere near the level of NY's.
I'm on your side of this one, for the most part. I can't count the number of times this season I saw our pass rush vainly chasing after a quarterback who was rolling out, and I'm pretty sure I could count on one hand the times they caught him. It's not a passing play, but if you need evidence of their ineptitude in backfield pursuit, watch the Marion Barber goal line play from the Dallas game.
That said, I do think the NE pass rush is underrated, if only because it is rarely if ever mentioned. And I think the Giants pass rush is somewhat overrated, just because so many of those sacks were accumulated in 2 games. I still agree with you generally that it's the one area they have a clear advantage.
Last edited by Watson's IQ; 02-01-2008 at 10:43 AM..
When did I say that NE was some average or abstract team? The Giants took it to NE on the LOS last time. Sure, NE was missing some guys, but they were missing those guys in other games and they weren't beaten on the line in those the way NY did.
NY's pass rush is for real and is significantly better than NE's. There is no two ways about it.
That bold statement may be correct, but you didn't make that determination based on week 17. Here is the cumulative line for the Giants 5 DL in that game: 11 solos, 8 assists, 0 sacks, 5 hurries. They got pressure from blitzing about half the time (Torbor had a sack and 3 hurries and Pierce had a sack negated by penalty).
When you blitz, you are going to be vulnerable in the secondary. Brady was hurried and hit because the Giants brought 5 and he stood in to let plays develop down field. Both TDs to Moss and the huge pass to Welker in the 3rd quarter were on blitz plays. Giants rack up the hurries and the admiration of you and the media. Pats rack up the big plays and the win.
Another thing you don't consider is what the teams were trying to accomplish in week 17. The Pats were perfectly content to drop 8 in coverage and wait for the inevitable Eli implosion. To his credit, Eli stayed within himself until the Hobbs pick. The Giants plan was to bring the blitz about half the time. Which team do you think is going to get more pressure?
Also enlightening...the drives when each team got their only sack:
Pats trailing 23-28 just after the Maroney TD
Giants move to the NE 41 and face 2nd and 8
AD gets a sack (-14 yards) and the Giants end up punting
Pats leading 31-28 just after the Hobbs pick
Pats face 1st and 10 at Giants 35
Torbor gets a sack (-10 yards)
2 short passes from Brady gain 22 yards and a 1st down
Maroney gets clinching TD
Giants take a sack and their drive circles the drain. Pats take a sack and are still able to salvage the drive. Part of that is football IQ (knowing when to hold and risk a sack, when to throw it away) and part is design (getting 20 yds in 2 plays with minimal risk).
You may be right that the Giants have a superior pass rush but if the play in week 17 gave you that idea, you should look a little closer.
I still agree with you generally that it's the one area they have a clear advantage.
You are comparing apples and oranges to some degree. They run different systems. You are seeing the Giants bring Gappy, Osi, Tuck, Robbins and Torbor. You are comparing that to the Pats bringing Wilfork, Seymour and Warren (sometimes Vrabel).
Let's make it an even comparison. Sames Giants configuration. The Pats bring AD, Seymour, Green, Vrabel and Harrison. Think they would get the same or better pressure? Sure...but that wasn't the gameplan in week 17.
You may be right that the Giants have a superior pass rush but if the play in week 17 gave you that idea, you should look a little closer.
If you go through my weekly thoughts, you will see a trend of me complaining about NE's non-blitz pass rush. I hold up week 17 as anecdotal evidence, not the entire basis of determination.
__________________ "They have one objective," said Washington cornerback Shawn Springs. "They whoop people's [backsides]. If you understand that, it answers all your questions. They might not lose [this year]."
I just wholeheartedly disagree. Just look at the last NE/NY game. They both got one sack, but NY was in Brady's face all game long while NE didn't lay a hand on Manning until most of the way through the 3rd quarter when they rushed 7 guys. Even after that, despite blitzing repeatedly from then on, NE rarely put much pressure on Eli.
Vrabel had a dominant run around mid-season, but aside from that NE has been inconsistent at rushing the passer. They seem to be good at taking the guy down when they get there but they don't get there very often. It is what it is. There is nothing that will convince me that NE's pass rush is anywhere near the level of NY's.
New England was without the entire right side of the line, yet the Giants were only able to get the one sack. I'm not sure how that makes your point. If anything, it undermines it. The Giants were getting most of their pressure off that side of the line, something that Original's thread backs up:
__________________
"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
- Marcus Aurelius
You are comparing apples and oranges to some degree. They run different systems. You are seeing the Giants bring Gappy, Osi, Tuck, Robbins and Torbor. You are comparing that to the Pats bringing Wilfork, Seymour and Warren (sometimes Vrabel).
Let's make it an even comparison. Sames Giants configuration. The Pats bring AD, Seymour, Green, Vrabel and Harrison. Think they would get the same or better pressure? Sure...but that wasn't the gameplan in week 17.
NE rushes AD or Vrabel on nearly every play, and regularly sends both of them.
__________________ "They have one objective," said Washington cornerback Shawn Springs. "They whoop people's [backsides]. If you understand that, it answers all your questions. They might not lose [this year]."
New England was without the entire right side of the line, yet the Giants were only able to get the one sack. I'm not sure how that makes your point. If anything, it undermines it. The Giants were getting most of their pressure off that side of the line, something that Original's thread backs up:
If you go through my weekly thoughts, you will see a trend of me complaining about NE's non-blitz pass rush. I hold up week 17 as anecdotal evidence, not the entire basis of determination.
__________________ "They have one objective," said Washington cornerback Shawn Springs. "They whoop people's [backsides]. If you understand that, it answers all your questions. They might not lose [this year]."
You are comparing apples and oranges to some degree. They run different systems. You are seeing the Giants bring Gappy, Osi, Tuck, Robbins and Torbor. You are comparing that to the Pats bringing Wilfork, Seymour and Warren (sometimes Vrabel).
I'm aware of the differences. I don't think it's unfair to ask the simple question "who gets more pressure on the QB, regardless of scheme?" because ultimately that's the goal. I think the answer is New York, though I'm not sure the gap is as wide as Oswlek implies.
Maybe not even as wide as the gap in Strahan's teeth. Had to.
If you go through my weekly thoughts, you will see a trend of me complaining about NE's non-blitz pass rush. I hold up week 17 as anecdotal evidence, not the entire basis of determination.
Understandable and I agree with you. Against the teams with competitive OL, the Pats should be able to pressure better with 4 than they do. My only problem was comparing the Pats non-blitz pressure against the Giants blitz pressure and drawing conclusions from that. If you compare the Pats and Giants when they just brought 4 (or 3 for the Pats in some cases), they were both fairly ineffective in getting to the QB. Ironically, the Giants seemed to play better overall when they dropped 7 into coverage. Something to watch for on Sunday.
Re: Giants first in sacks with 53
Linear Mode
