MoLewisrocks

Spread offense has ability to help teams in pass protection

Patspsycho

Good post, thanks. I've always thought Brady functioned best with an empty backfield which he did a number of times last season.

I think the effective formula is to have a mix of empty, mid protection and use full protection sparsely. The unpredictability is far effective than any one formation.

BradyManny

Sure, but there are two problems w the spread, and the Pats have faced both of them: 1) when the spread becomes predictable, it is REALLY predictable. The pass rushers don't even have to contemplate defending the run. 2) more importantly, when a team's four man rush is beating a 5 man line (see SB42, 09 wild card game vs Ravens), you're just plain screwed.

Particularly when you're #3 option is Sam Aiken - a guy who, each training camp he has been here, has practiced as a special teamer before he has as a wide receiver. He had no business being on the field as much as he was last year. Its comforting that, as we enter another year, he's back to his ST role, and has been surpassed by Holt, Tate, Edelman, Price on the depth chart. He does not really seem to be in the mix for a WR position based on what we know from practices thus far.

Point being. Last year - we weren't creating a competitive advantage by placing our #3 wideout against their #3 CB last year. That has to change going forward.

I wish I could get the #s, but I remember Brady had insanely good #s out of play-action, and also I believe out of max-protect, in 2007. I would wager a guess it was similar in 2009. If we go max protect and run a play-action, you're going to give Moss a chance to get open, and when that happens, it often leads to 6.

There's no one way to skin a cat, at least not for a team with multiple options on offense. Best bet is to try and find matchups that work best. When we had 4 capable receiving options (2007), we could do no wrong. When we only had 2 capable receiving options (2009), the spread did not work for us against teams with any semblance of depth at CB or with any pass rush ability.

Deus Irae

This will be true of every offensive system.

__________________
"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
- Marcus Aurelius

BradyManny

Of course. But its the spread which takes its 5 best blockers and puts them against the other team's 4 best rushers. The numbers are different for other systems. If your #6, #7 blockers are better than the oppositions 5th and 6th rusher, then you have an advantage if you leave more protection. The point is to isolate advantages in one's favor.

Sam Aiken against a lot of CBs in the league is a detriment against us. I, personally, think we'd have been better off running more 2TE sets last year, letting the opposition rush another LB or two. History has shown that our TEs, as well as our RBs (Faulk), are good at picking up extra rushers.

I guess the real key then is to have an actual #3WR and not a special teamer playing wideout.

Sicilian

Bingo. Not only that, but the basic principle will be true in any SPORT. When you can beat five guys with four guys, it leaves you with a numbers advantage elsewhere (especially in football where no one is "defending" the QB, so it's really 4 guys beating 6 guys, allowing TWO double coverages.)

Deus Irae

Perhaps you're confusing "spread" with "empty backfield". It's not just the spread which pits 5 blockers against 4 rushers. Every offensive system in football will do that. The rules of the game pretty much guarantee that, unless you run tackle eligible plays on every down.

Well, I think you're overrating the patriots TEs and their blocking. Graham was/is a tremendous blocker. Brady was a mauler against the run, although he'd slowed in pass blocking by the time he signed with the Patriots. Outside of those two, blocking at the TE spot has been very mediocre for the Patriots in the BB era. The Patriots also used both Watson and Baker each more than 60% of the time last season, meaning that there was a fair amount of 2 TE formation being run.

However, I'm in complete agreement with you about Aiken. I think that his level of suck, combined with Brady's inconsistency, and the injuries to the O-line, pretty much doomed last year's offense to its relative mediocrity. I expect a significant improvement this year, assuming Crumpler isn't completely shot and someone can play the WR3 position at even a slightly below average NFL level.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

__________________
"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
- Marcus Aurelius

chris_in_sunnyvale

The Pats spread will kill 90% of the teams. Then the Pats will get to the playoffs and run into the 10% who can (1) ensure pressure with a blitz, (2) are smart enough to play bump-and-run, betting that the blitz will get to get to Brady before the WRs have time to separate from the coverage and (3) have a good centerfielder (e.g. Reed, Polamalu) to mitigate the damage should #2 fail.

The Pats went to the well too often with the empty-backfield spread last year. They're better off mixing things up, keeping the D on its toes. This is also why they need to develop a reliable running game they can lean on when the spread is figured out. That running game was the difference between the AFCCG vs. San Diego and the SB42 loss two weeks later.

Regards,
Chris

BradyManny

Sure, obviously every football play starts with 5 linemen and 4 rushers as a bit of a baseline, and works from there. My point was that if we're not getting an advantage at #3 WR v #3CB, we might as well try and find it elsewhere.

I agree the 2TE formation was run quite a bit last season - and I think when it was run, it was successful. Why we never saw it during the Ravens game, I'm not sure.

Again, its a completely different story when Sam Aiken is not our #3WR. But as it was, we might as well have had a cardboard cutout opposite Moss. What gets Sam Aiken off the field? Another TE, RB or an extra tackle. In most cases, whatever player coming onto the field for us in his stead would be more of an asset than Sam Aiken.

Patspsycho

I was discussing the protection not the spread itself, e.g., the actual offense, which like you said, was predictable.