AndyJohnson

You cant point to a few people and say they were the replacements for all of the players that left. Colvin was on the team in 03, so he isnt a replacement from the 03-04 rosters, by the way.
I am saying the 53 man roster could not be replaced. Its simply a fact. That if you get 150mill of talent under a 75mill cap, your talent will erode as those contracts expire. To name 2 or 3 players at 2 positions doesnt come close to repsonding to the issue I am talking about. You said yourself Samuel wasn't replaced. Law was never replaced by equal ability, nor even was Tyrone Poole, at the level he played at that time. Ted Johnson, Roman Phifer, Ted Washington, Givens, Branch, Graham and on and on and on.
Naming some replacements doesnt address that it was impossible to replace ALL with like talent. In fact, my overall point was the a tremendous job was done replacing SOME to improve areas to compensate for the overall degredation.

ATippett56

With regard to Vollmer, look at his draft rating - late 3rd round, early fourth round. Vollmer was not an unknown commodity in the 2009 NFL Draft.

Christian Morton was rated at best a late sixth round, early seventh round draft pick AND was not invited to the NFL combine. Jabari Greer was rated a late fourth round, early fifth round draft pick AND was invited to the NFL combine. Not only Jabari Greer was rated a higher cornerback but he was available for inteviews during the NFL combines.

As for your NFL Draft Scout comment, if you wish to be uninformed that is your prerogative.

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The End of the Chad Ochostinko Era!

Deus Irae

Colvin, however, was replacing an earlier departee, which is how you keep the team from declining. The Colvin problem arose because one of the very things you're saying they couldn't do was, in fact, done, but had a disappointing result due to injury.

From where I'm reading, you've confused a determination not to pay certain people money with the inability to do so. The team could certainly have paid Branch, just as an example, but it refused to move on the last year of Branch's rookie contract. Givens was paid far more than he reasonably should have. You let those players walk regardless of any salary cap. We see that in sports like baseball, all the time. You're also focused mainly on players that I noted: Seymour, Law and Law, all of whom were given large number contracts while still with the Patriots and all of whom played at least a season with the team at those high numbers.

Johnson and Pfifer weren't cap casualties. Johnson retired due to concussion issues, but he was already in camp. Seau certainly was an adequate replacement brought in the next season. Phifer was no longer the player he had been. He was 36 in 2004. Replacements were brought in. They were simply less successful.

I understand what you're saying, but you've combined two separate assertions. One regards talent replacement and the other regards salary cap issues. I'm in complete agreement with the idea that great players were not replaced with great players over the course of time. I'm simply pointing out that the facts don't support the argument that this was due to the salary cap, at least in most cases.

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"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
- Marcus Aurelius

ATippett56

Please rate the New England Patriots draft for 2006 and 2008.

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The End of the Chad Ochostinko Era!

ATippett56

Obviously you see the big picture however the New England Patriots draft in 2004 from the second round on down, with the exception of Corey Dillon, was abysmal. It seems the even years 2004, 2006, 2008 have produced subpar results.

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The End of the Chad Ochostinko Era!

ATippett56

The manner in which the New England Patriots played against the Baltimore Ravens in the 2009 AFC Playoffs should question the decline of the New England Patriots.

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The End of the Chad Ochostinko Era!

AndyJohnson

Stop the strawman.

Nowhere in anything I have said am I talking about whether they could, would, wanted to or didn't want to replace individual players.
I am saying they could not afford to either:
A) Keep EVERY player or
B) Replace them with an equal player for the same cap cost

Players contracts expired throughout the the subsequent 5 years.
They kept some. They replaced every single one. They maintianed 53 man rosters.
But it was impossible to retain them or replace them with SIMILAR talent, because what it would cost to replace them that way would have enormously exceeded the cap.
We haven't been as good at corner since Law left. One of the consequences of what I am describing is that we could not spend as much on a replacement as we were spending on Law. Not if we intended to give raises to any players, or to replace the ones that leave with equal ones. Its not about the decisions that were made. A player who left due to age rather than money means no difference.

Once again:
The total level of talent on the 03-04 Patriots was by far the best in the NFL.
As soon as those contracts started expiring, there were 3 choices:
1) Give the player a raise
2) Let the player go and replace them with an equal talent costing substantially more
3) Let the player go and replace him with a player costing about what he did, which would be a big dropoff in talent

You can look at individual instances where we did 1 or 2 but every time we did that it meant we had to do 3, or even the 4th option which is fill out the back of the roster with more rookies, minimum salary free agents, etc, because there wasnt cap space left.

You want to strawman this into saying players were replaced. That is ignorant. Of course they were replaced, we maintained 53 players on the roster. But the overall talent level was destined to decline.

Here is an analogy.
The Yankees payroll is far above everyone elses. If we stipulate agree for the sake of argument that players are paid about their value, if you introduced a salary cap into baseball and made every player a fre agent, the decrease in overall talent on the roster of the Yankees would be the greatest in the league.
That is exactly what happened to the Patriots, but it happened over time as the contracts expired one by one. "Bargain" contracts were signed as the dynasty was built and players outplayed their contracts. Its foolish to think the talent level could be maintained under a salary cap.

AndyJohnson

Regarding your last paragraph, of course it was due to the cap, because the cap is the constraint. When Deion Branch, making 500k and playing at a 5mill level leaves, there isnt 5mill available to get another player to play at that level. Instead you get Reche Caldwell. Do you think they chose Reche Caldwell over a WR they could have paid 5 mill for, for any reason other than they couldn't afford it (along with the other 52 players) under the cap?
You cite players they signed, but those players represented increased expenditure to replace similar players. What does that mean? It means you must cut elsewhere.
My overall point was that given the absolute inability to maintain the overall talent level under a cap, the Patriots actually did an excellent job of prioritizing where to spend more and where to cheap, unless you consider the last 5 years in and of themselves an utter failure. I don't.