The official "We just can't win without Givens" thread

[PatsFanInVa]

... Makes about as much sense as some of the others floating around here.

Bonus points for the most creative explanation of why. I'll start.

Think about it: With little weaponry comes great responsibility. Brady has gone soft with Moss and Welker. The team in general is so soft that they throw away Joey Galloway like he's yesterday's news. Everybody has had it way too easy, proving that it is better to have an incredibly reliable quarterback making do with middling receiver talent than to have a premier quarterback growing to Favre-esque stature in the local fan-base's mind, because of the acquisition of a couple of statistical monsters.

Beyond that the old days of Givens and Troy Brown and the like epitomized a Patriots ethic that has unfortunately morphed into the Evil Empire. We use to be the Little Engine that Could, then we were the Little Engine that could again as long as we picked up Corey Dillon, then we became the Big Conrail Train Coming Your Way And There's Not a Damn Thing You Can Do About It. Brady got too used to driving that train. The coordinators got too used to playcalling from a position of power. Everything sucks because there's too little adversity, and we got stale, because (not in spite of) the acquisition of Moss and Welker.

The clear message is this: stop trying to pick up really good players, especially on offense. Regardless of the progressive re-re-re-liberalization of passing offense, you don't want to get stale and keep up with the league. What you want to do is innovatively mire yourself in a memory of 2003 or so.

You can just get so much more thrilled about a guy like Givens zooming straight from the bottom to the middle, than Randy occasionally disappointing by ever playing at such a high level. That's why we had that old "Brady Magic," it was really the old Givens Magic. I mean, how can you even say Randy Moss suited up if he doesn't score a TD in one game? With Givens, it would be like "we're looking at a 10-TD year folks, heck, that's just Givens alone!"

Now if you want to call for the return of McPhereson, well, that's another thread. I see none of Tony Eason's toughness in Brady, because he married a real hot chick... but again, that really doesn't establish that David Givens was the key, so let's not go there. I just want further evidence that the key to all the Lombardis is David Givens.

Annnnd, action!

[upstater1]

LOL, well done.

The idea that scoring 5-7 points a game more than we used to is a bad thing, well, it's a funny idea.

[RayClay]

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

... Makes about as much sense as some of the others floating around here.

Bonus points for the most creative explanation of why. I'll start.

Think about it: With little weaponry comes great responsibility. Brady has gone soft with Moss and Welker. The team in general is so soft that they throw away Joey Galloway like he's yesterday's news. Everybody has had it way too easy, proving that it is better to have an incredibly reliable quarterback making do with middling receiver talent than to have a premier quarterback growing to Favre-esque stature in the local fan-base's mind, because of the acquisition of a couple of statistical monsters.

Beyond that the old days of Givens and Troy Brown and the like epitomized a Patriots ethic that has unfortunately morphed into the Evil Empire. We use to be the Little Engine that Could, then we were the Little Engine that could again as long as we picked up Corey Dillon, then we became the Big Conrail Train Coming Your Way And There's Not a Damn Thing You Can Do About It. Brady got too used to driving that train. The coordinators got too used to playcalling from a position of power. Everything sucks because there's too little adversity, and we got stale, because (not in spite of) the acquisition of Moss and Welker.

The clear message is this: stop trying to pick up really good players, especially on offense. Regardless of the progressive re-re-re-liberalization of passing offense, you don't want to get stale and keep up with the league. What you want to do is innovatively mire yourself in a memory of 2003 or so.

You can just get so much more thrilled about a guy like Givens zooming straight from the bottom to the middle, than Randy occasionally disappointing by ever playing at such a high level. That's why we had that old "Brady Magic," it was really the old Givens Magic. I mean, how can you even say Randy Moss suited up if he doesn't score a TD in one game? With Givens, it would be like "we're looking at a 10-TD year folks, heck, that's just Givens alone!"

Now if you want to call for the return of McPhereson, well, that's another thread. I see none of Tony Eason's toughness in Brady, because he married a real hot chick... but again, that really doesn't establish that David Givens was the key, so let's not go there. I just want further evidence that the key to all the Lombardis is David Givens.

Annnnd, action!

Didn't read it all, but the discipline imposed on the offense by fewer weapons is sadly missing today IMO. How often do you see them patiently march up the field using all the runs, short passes, screens etc. to keep the defense just off balance enough?

I rarely see them get two first downs without throwing a 70 yard bomb.

So there is wisdom in your madness. You make that money last when it's tight, and make it rain when your loaded.

[PatsFanInVa]

Originally Posted by RayClay

...You make that money last when it's tight, and make it rain when your loaded.

Yeah but it's a little bit like lounging around your yacht and saying "You know the happiest I've ever been is when I was hooked on the junk and living in a cardboard box under an underpass. I didn't have much but I didn't need much." You conveniently forget that it got really cold and really wet out, and that all your friends from that time that shot up and stayed in carboard boxes died of pneumonia after one winter too many.

Missing a lack of receiver talent is like remembering when you had to walk 10 miles to school and back, uphill both ways, eat a spoonfull of cold poison for breakfast, and hand-copy textbooks at the library because you couldn't afford real ones, and claim that your straight As were due to your poverty. Uh yeah kinda, but there are other ways to get there

[maverick4]

Originally Posted by PatsFanInVa

.
The clear message is this: stop trying to pick up really good players, especially on offense.

Completely missed the point.

Having as many great players as you can accumulate under the cap is great, but over-relying on the same few players over and over is a mistake. This team can't win when it is stopped from executing its favorite plays.

[BradyFTW!]

Originally Posted by maverick4

Completely missed the point.

Having as many great players as you can accumulate under the cap is great, but over-relying on the same few players over and over is a mistake. This team can't win when it is stopped from executing its favorite plays.

The funny thing about all of this is that you've been saying it for 3 years that I can remember, and you were wrong right up until this year. It's like we finally hired an OC (O'Brien) who actually is what you wrongly thought McDaniels was. Subsequently, your criticisms, after being misguided at best for a couple of years, are just now becoming valid. Go figure...

If I believed in karma, I'd blame Bill "come out with 5 WR directly after scoring a TD on a power-running drive" O'Brien on you, and I'd hate you a little bit for it.

[maverick4]

Originally Posted by BradyFTW!

The funny thing about all of this is that you've been saying it for 3 years that I can remember, and you were wrong right up until this year. It's like we finally hired an OC (O'Brien) who actually is what you wrongly thought McDaniels was. Subsequently, your criticisms, after being misguided at best for a couple of years, are just now becoming valid. Go figure...

Actually, I believe my criticisms from 05-08 are still right, that those offenses routinely choked when we needed key 1st downs due to predictability, but that the 2007 statistical explosion made McKid a lot of fans around here. Look up some old game threads, there was plenty of criticism of McKid's play calling each of the 4 seasons he was OC, not just by me but many others. I still think McKid benefitted greatly in 2007 from a Meyer-adapted offense no one saw before, amazing talent in Moss/Welker/Stallworth, and a super-motivated offense ticked off from the Video Witch Hunt.

[IcyPatriot]

If Chad Jackson ... if only Chad jackson had ... he didn't did he ...

[BradyFTW!]

Originally Posted by maverick4

Actually, I believe my criticisms from 05-08 are still right, that those offenses routinely choked when we needed key 1st downs due to predictability, but that the 2007 statistical explosion made McKid a lot of fans around here. Look up some old game threads, there was plenty of criticism of McKid's play calling each of the 4 seasons he was OC, not just by me but many others. I still think McKid benefitted greatly in 2007 from a Meyer-adapted offense no one saw before, amazing talent in Moss/Welker/Stallworth, and a super-motivated offense ticked off from the Video Witch Hunt.

You're definitely right that a lot of people in the game threads were criticizing McDaniels' playcalling, but that doesn't really demonstrate anything. Game threads are pretty much a monument to ignorance, overreaction and hyperbole.

[maverick4]

Originally Posted by BradyFTW!

You're definitely right that a lot of people in the game threads were criticizing McDaniels' playcalling, but that doesn't really demonstrate anything. Game threads are pretty much a monument to ignorance, overreaction and hyperbole.

Look at these 2 pages:

You have people now using stats to say that O'Brien is a good offensive coordinator:
How many more wins with Charlie & Romeo?

How many more wins with Charlie & Romeo?


It's the McKid argument all over again... except O'Brien takes predictability and banging your head against the wall to a whole new level.