Nice discussion of the rookies from Scout.com (public article) - Page 2 - New England Patriots Forums

***BradyFTW!*** · 06-25-2009, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

It's either they have confidence in these two or the Pats just don't get it when it comes to LB's. Nobody will ever know why the Pats continue to ignore the glaring need at LB with the exception of drafting Jerod Mayo and Shawn Crable in 2008. In fact, the Pats have only drafted a LB in the 1st and 3rd round once since BB took over.

I don't agree with this. First, not only is Chung bigger than Delmas, but he is a better hitter as well. Second, although Delmas might be a better cover guy than Chung, the Pats already have one of those in Merriweather. What the Pats desperately needed was a safety that can make plays with his hitting ability and the ability to play as a 8th guy in the box (think Bob Sanders). In the end, we will never know who the Pats would have taken if they had the choice between the two. However, because the Pats already have the "center fielder" in Merriweather, I'd take the hitter.

With Wilfork in the lineup, the Pats run defense was not that great last season allowing 106 yards per game. In 2007, teams wouldn't even attempt to run the football against the Pats because they were down by so much. However, their run defense was pretty solid in 2006 allowing only 94 yards per game. Lastly, in Wilfork's first year as a full time starter in 2005, the run defense really struggled until late into the season. In conclusion, the Pats run defense has been good consistently for 2 out of the last 4 seasons with Wilfork as a starting NT.

So this could mean one of two things. First, the Pats run defense has struggled because their LB's are really that slow and are unable to fill the gaps in time. Or, Wilfork and their entire D-line are overrated.

So what am I trying to say? I'm saying that if Brace is able to show anything that gives the Pats coaching staff confidence he can be a full time starter, Wilfork is gone. If there's a big time stud pass rushing LB available in FA in 2010, I would imagine the Pats finally addressing that.

Even leaving it out there as an option that Belichick "just doesn't get it" when it comes to linebackers might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this board. The guy got his start as a linebacker coach for a historically good defense that featured amazing linebackers, after which he became one of the best DC's the game has ever seen followed by one of the best HC's the game has ever seen. This past year, he drafted a LB who became the DROY. I'm going to out on a limb and say that he knows a little bit more about linebackers than you do.

PatsBoy12 · 06-25-2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradyFTW!

Even leaving it out there as an option that Belichick "just doesn't get it" when it comes to linebackers might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this board. The guy got his start as a linebacker coach for a historically good defense that featured amazing linebackers, after which he became one of the best DC's the game has ever seen followed by one of the best HC's the game has ever seen. This past year, he drafted a LB who became the DROY. I'm going to out on a limb and say that he knows a little bit more about linebackers than you do.

This is precisely what ran through my mind when I read the comment as well, although I never left a comment because I like to respect everyone on the board and wasn't prepared at that time to do so since I thought the statement was utterly ridiculous. It's been more than well-publicized that BB doesn't like to take linebackers in the first round. What happened the one year that he did decide to do it? We got a DROY. How can anyone say the man doesn't know linebackers? This is the same guy that has coached the likes of Pepper Johnson, Mike Vrabel, Tedy Bruschi, and one LT (some of you may have heard of him

).

HEY BRO! WHAT UP? · 06-25-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsBoy12

This is precisely what ran through my mind when I read the comment as well, although I never left a comment because I like to respect everyone on the board and wasn't prepared at that time to do so since I thought the statement was utterly ridiculous. It's been more than well-publicized that BB doesn't like to take linebackers in the first round. What happened the one year that he did decide to do it? We got a DROY. How can anyone say the man doesn't know linebackers? This is the same guy that has coached the likes of Pepper Johnson, Mike Vrabel, Tedy Bruschi, and one LT (some of you may have heard of him

).

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradyFTW!

Even leaving it out there as an option that Belichick "just doesn't get it" when it comes to linebackers might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this board. The guy got his start as a linebacker coach for a historically good defense that featured amazing linebackers, after which he became one of the best DC's the game has ever seen followed by one of the best HC's the game has ever seen. This past year, he drafted a LB who became the DROY. I'm going to out on a limb and say that he knows a little bit more about linebackers than you do.

Oh come on man, you're hurting my feelings

. I'm just saying, it's kind of odd that BB can't seem to get any impact LB's over the course of his tenure as a coach. Even during their super bowl years, their LB's had to rely on smarts and BB's scheme to succeed. In fact, they weren't the most athletically gifted LB's in the NFL. The only exception was Willie McGinest when he was in his 20's. As of right now, they have Adalius Thomas, who is the most gifted of the bunch. However, most people would argue that he hasn't lived up to his hype.

I look at a team like Pittsburgh and have to admit that Dick LeBeau runs the 3-4 to perfection. Also, their front office is awesome when it comes to replacing key parts at certain positions. In particular, Pittsburgh never goes wrong when LB's need to be replaced. Just when you think their defense is going to take a step back, they don't. They lose Kendrell Bell (former rookie of the year), no problem. They lose Greg Llyod, no problem. They lose Lavon Kirkland, no problem. They lose Joey Porter, no problem. They lose Clark Haggans, no problem. Pittsburgh is a LB machine. I'm just saying, if New England ever get's athletically gifted LB's to complement the D-line will really show how good BB really is. It's just disappointing to see their stellar D-line go to waste with average LB's. However, having Mayo in the middle is a good start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt9071

Yea obviously bill has no clue how to draft linebackers. You must not remember Mayo droy last season. Obviously the guys bill didnt pick just werent good enough or not worth the risk.

Sure, and he has only drafted 2 LB's in the first three rounds in almost ten years.

I love your guy's analysis and defense of BB, keep them coming!

matt9071 · 06-25-2009, 11:23 PM

Yea obviously bill has no clue how to draft linebackers. You must not remember Mayo droy last season. Obviously the guys bill didnt pick just werent good enough or not worth the risk.

***TriplecHamp*** · 06-25-2009, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

Oh come on man, you're hurting my feelings

. I'm just saying, it's kind of odd that BB can't seem to get any impact LB's over the course of his tenure as a coach. Even during their super bowl years, their LB's had to rely on smarts and BB's scheme to succeed. In fact, they weren't the most athletically gifted LB's in the NFL. The only exception was Willie McGinest when he was in his 20's. As of right now, they have Adalius Thomas, who is the most gifted of the bunch. However, most people would argue that he hasn't lived up to his hype.

I look at a team like Pittsburgh and have to admit that Dick LeBeau runs the 3-4 to perfection. Also, their front office is awesome when it comes to replacing key parts at certain positions. In particular, Pittsburgh never goes wrong when LB's need to be replaced. Just when you think their defense is going to take a step back, they don't. They lose Kendrell Bell (former rookie of the year), no problem. They lose Greg Llyod, no problem. They lose Lavon Kirkland, no problem. They lose Joey Porter, no problem. They lose Clark Haggans, no problem. Pittsburgh is a LB machine. I'm just saying, if New England ever get's athletically gifted LB's to complement the D-line will really show how good BB really is. It's just disappointing to see their stellar D-line go to waste with average LB's. However, having Mayo in the middle is a good start.

Sure, and he has only drafted 2 LB's in the first three rounds in almost ten years.

I love your guy's analysis and defense of BB, keep them coming!

Im with you on this one. Listen nobody is perfect but we have passed on plenty of good LBs and now we might I repeat 'might' have a problem. I just hate when people defend BB tooth and Nail. He is human he makes mistakes like everybody else. I also just want to point out that HBWU? never said BB, he said that Pats as a whole. Maybe Pitt scouts LB's better who knows. Mayo is a great start.

PatsBoy12 · 06-25-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriplecHamp

Im with you on this one. Listen nobody is perfect but we have passed on plenty of good LBs and now we might I repeat 'might' have a problem. I just hate when people defend BB tooth and Nail. He is human he makes mistakes like everybody else. I also just want to point out that HBWU? never said BB, he said that Pats as a whole. Maybe Pitt scouts LB's better who knows. Mayo is a great start.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I for sure am not defending anyone tooth-and-nail. However, you all are talking about this perceived weakness at the LB position and how we've never had good LB's (not you personally), but our LB's were good enough to win for the last decade, no? Whenever there was a play needed defensively, was it not Bruschi making the key interception or fumble recovery? I seem to remember Vrabel creating havoc for Delhomme while catching touchdown passes in the same game.

Look, I kinda get the point he made about Pittsburgh. But at the same time, how many combined SB's did they win with all the great LB's he listed? They made it to the SB once in the 90's, in which they got trounced. In the end, SB's are what it's about, no? I don't think Dick, Bill, or any coach is trying to outdo one another in a "let's create the best LB corp." competition. It's about SB's and NE is the team widely regarded as the Team of the Decade, not the Steelers and all their great LB's. It's BB being considered the Coach of the Decade, not Tomlin, Cowher, or even Lebeau, the latter failing miserably when he had an opportunity to be a head coach. You mention that he didn't specifically name Belichick, and he didn't. But when you criticize the team for bad personnel moves in respect to the LB, and BB is the man who signs off on all the final moves since he was granted that power, then you are in a sense criticizing BB whether you mention his name or not.

Anyway, I'm not going to change anyone's mind and nobody is going to change mine. I don't think BB is made of gold and is infallible, but the man knows how to coach. He saw a LB that was worth a first-round choice and he went after him. Mayo could have easily been a bust, but it worked out. I'm sure if he saw another Mayo in this draft, he would have gotten him. As long as he's coaching and winning championships and I'm just watching the games on TV, I'm going to assume he knows more about football and his teams than I do. In my mind, he is the best coach in the game right now, and he is one of the greatest football minds that I've ever witnessed in my years of watching the sport. I respect everyone else's opinion, so you all are certainly entitled to believe what you all are saying. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the criticisms. I think that's fair enough.

maverick4 · 06-26-2009, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

So this could mean one of two things. First, the Pats run defense has struggled because their LB's are really that slow and are unable to fill the gaps in time. Or, Wilfork and their entire D-line are overrated.

Wilfork is good, but he's no Ted Washington.
If Brace can get to starter level by next year, Wilfork isn't getting paid here.

HEY BRO! WHAT UP? · 06-26-2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsBoy12

Look, I kinda get the point he made about Pittsburgh. But at the same time, how many combined SB's did they win with all the great LB's he listed? They made it to the SB once in the 90's, in which they got trounced. In the end, SB's are what it's about, no? I don't think Dick, Bill, or any coach is trying to outdo one another in a "let's create the best LB corp." competition. It's about SB's and NE is the team widely regarded as the Team of the Decade, not the Steelers and all their great LB's.

The Pats only made the super bowl once in the 90's and got handled by the Green Bay Packers. Also, they only have one more super bowl win than the Steelers but have 4 appearances in this decade. Granted, the two Steelers super bowl wins came from the Pats getting eliminated by Denver in '05 and Tom Brady getting injured in '08. As good as Pittsburgh's defense was, there wasn't a chance that they would've beat the Pats with Tom Brady in the lineup.

It's not about creating the "best LB competition", I'm just pointing out that Pittsburgh does a great job of replacing key players and not missing a beat on defense. Also, they run the 3-4 defense the right way; killing QB's. I'm surprised that BB doesn't value LB's for a 3-4 defense because this is where your pressure comes from.

Here's a question for the BB defenders. If BB is such a genius, why is taking him so long to rebuild an average LB group?

AzPatsFan · 06-26-2009, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

The Pats only made the super bowl once in the 90's and got handled by the Green Bay Packers. Also, they only have one more super bowl win than the Steelers but have 4 appearances in this decade. Granted, the two Steelers super bowl wins came from the Pats getting eliminated by Denver in '05 and Tom Brady getting injured in '08. As good as Pittsburgh's defense was, there wasn't a chance that they would've beat the Pats with Tom Brady in the lineup.

It's not about creating the "best LB competition", I'm just pointing out that Pittsburgh does a great job of replacing key players and not missing a beat on defense. Also, they run the 3-4 defense the right way; killing QB's. I'm surprised that BB doesn't value LB's for a 3-4 defense because this is where your pressure comes from.

Here's a question for the BB defenders. If BB is such a genius, why is taking him so long to rebuild an average LB group?

Considering that he only started two years ago, and is putting the finishing touches on already, I'd say he was doing just fine. If Pitt is so good drafting, how come their O-line is falling apart, along with their D-line?

HEY BRO! WHAT UP? · 06-26-2009, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzPatsFan

Considering that he only started two years ago, and is putting the finishing touches on already, I'd say he was doing just fine. If Pitt is so good drafting, how come their O-line is falling apart, along with their D-line?

The Pats defense is heading in the right direction, but far from finishing touches. Sure their O-line sucks, but how is their D-line falling apart?