Stating the Obvious-Youth movement at LB - New England Patriots Forums

Patsfanin Philly · 06-20-2009, 09:15 AM

As any regular reader of this board knows, the Patriots' linebacking corps has gotten much younger over the last two years. I know it's stating the obvious, but it begs the question, how much younger? Approximately 4 years of age compared to the 2007 team..From 31.0 (2007) to 29.4 (2008) to 27.5 (2009 current roster) (It was younger until Appleby was cut). Before I get flamed, I'm not using the starters but the entire roster for whomever was listed as LB, so Izzo is included as well as Seau on last year's team because he came back which skews it higher a bit.Without Seau, last year's team averaged 28.4 years of age.
I am waiting for the lazies in the main stream media to talk about the Pats' dinosaurs in their LB when I have to believe it's comparable to other teams in terms of expereince and age.

’07 average age 31.0 ….7 over age 30
Chad Brown 37
Bruschi 34
Colvin 30
Izzo 33
Corey Mays 24
Seau 38
Thomas 30
Vrabel 32
Woods 25
---------------------------------------------
’08 average 29.4 6 over age 30
Mayo 22
Vrabel 33
Bruschi 35
Thomas 31
Alexander 26
Colvin 31
Guyton 23
Izzo 34
Redd 23
Woods 26
Seau 39

’09 average age 27.5 3 over age 30
29 Vinnie Ciurciu 5/2/80
24 Shawn Crable 12/26/84
36 Tedy Bruschi 6/9/73
31 Paris Lenon 11/26/77
23 Jerod Mayo 2/23/86
29 Tully 8/28/80
23 Vince Redd 9/1/85
31 Adalius Thomas 8/18/77
27 Pierre Woods 1/6/82
27 Eric Alexander 2/6/82 (mostly special teams but listed as LB)
23 Gary Guyton 11/14/85

Edit- Forgot Tully first time

***jmt57*** · 06-20-2009, 09:49 AM

A couple of things. The '09 roster you have their current age, but the '07 and '08 rosters use the age of the players during the season. For example, you have Thomas as age 31 in '08 and still 31 in '09.

On the other hand the age difference is actually more profound than those stats make it appear to be in '07 versus '08 when you consider who was actually playing. Corey Mays and Woods make the average age of the '07 team lower than what was on the field, while Seau and Izzo make the '08 group appear to be older than they really were. If I could find an average age per snap, which would refelect the age of who was actually playing, then we would see a bigger difference between the two squads.

Anyways, here is what the '09 group looks like with age adjusted for how old they will be this season.

’09 average age 28.0 3 over age 30
29 Vinnie Ciurciu 5/2/80
25 Shawn Crable 12/26/84
36 Tedy Bruschi 6/9/73
32 Paris Lenon 11/26/77
23 Jerod Mayo 2/23/86
29 Tully 8/28/80
24 Vince Redd 9/1/85
32 Adalius Thomas 8/18/77
27 Pierre Woods 1/6/82
27 Eric Alexander 2/6/82 (mostly special teams but listed as LB)
24 Gary Guyton 11/14/85

RayClay · 06-20-2009, 10:05 AM

Of course we lost McGinest Vrabel Colvin and Seau to get younger. If we have players that replace that talent somewhat, we've got younger.

Mayo's obviously "getting younger". Until others prove themselves as starters, we're just holding tryouts.

Pats726 · 06-20-2009, 10:24 AM

It's an obvious trend...but if there are injuries, I would not at all be surprised if an oldster returned...like Colvin did last year.

***mgteich*** · 06-20-2009, 10:26 AM

Yes, we are much younger this year because we needed to bring in Colvin and Seau last year. Going into this season, we brought in Banta-Cain and Lenon/Ciurciu to replace Vrabel and Izzo/Alexander.

Thomas, Woods, Mayo, Bruschi, Guyton and Crable/Redd were here for 2008 and are available now.

***jmt57*** · 06-20-2009, 12:41 PM

So does this mean that fans of other teams and members of the national media are going to stop repeating the 'old-and-slow' phrase now? Will their new catch phrase be "green and inexperienced" this season? It's also worth mentioning that with Rodney Harrison retired, the Pats are younger at safety as well.

Here's a closer look at the age of last year's linebackers and who was getting the playing time.
Final Defensive Snapshot

ILB Jerod Mayo (22) -- 857 of 950 snaps (90 percent)
OLB Mike Vrabel (33) -- 825 of 950 (87 percent)
OLB Adalius Thomas (31) -- 466 of 950 (49 percent)
ILB Tedy Bruschi (35) -- 399 of 950 (42 percent)
ILB Gary Guyton (23) -- 300 of 950 (32 percent)
OLB Pierre Woods (26) -- 247 of 950 (26 percent)
ILB Junior Seau (39) -- 178 of 950 (19 percent)
OLB Rosevelt Colvin (31) -- 161 of 950 (17 percent)
OLB Vince Redd (23) -- 35 of 950 (4 percent)

That works out to an average age of 28.99 per snap for the 2008 linebackers. That would have been lower if not for the injuries that resulted in Bruschi playing more often, and Seau and Colvin having to return.

There's no total by Reiss for the 2007 season, but I did find these two individual games for comparison.

12/07 vs Dolphins
LB Mike Vrabel – 69 of 69
LB Adalius Thomas – 67 of 69
LB Junior Seau – 57 of 69
LB Tedy Bruschi – 46 of 69
LB Eric Alexander – 2 of 69
LB Larry Izzo – 2 of 69
LB Pierre Woods – 2 of 69

10/07 vs Dolphins
OLB Rosevelt Colvin -- 63 of 70
OLB Mike Vrabel -- 58 of 70
ILB Adalius Thomas -- 58 of 70
ILB Tedy Bruschi -- 44 of 70
ILB Junior Seau -- 38 of 70
OLB Pierre Woods -- 15 of 70

Collectively, the '07 stats for those two games were:
Mike Vrabel (32) - 127 of 139 (91%)
Adalius Thomas (30) - 125 of 139 (90%)
Junior Seau (38) - 95 of 139 (68%)
Tedy Bruschi (34) - 90 of 139 (65%)
Rosevelt Colvin (30) - 63 of 139 (45%)
Pierre Woods (25) - 17 of 139 (12%)
Eric Alexander (25) - 2 of 139 (1%)
Larry Izzo (33) - 2 of 139 (1%)

Granted, not as accurate since it's based on two games rather than the whole season, but it is revealing when you look at the ages of the guys that were getting playing time. The average age per snap for the '07 linebackers was 32.47 years old.

Now to take it a step further, what would the projections be for the 2009 season? I realize this is just a guesstimate, and one or more of these players may be cut, injured, etc., but I just wanted to see how this would work out, age-wise.

Jerod Mayo (23) -- 90%
Adalius Thomas (32) -- 80%
Tedy Bruschi (36) -- 40%
Gary Guyton (24) -- 40%
Paris Lenon (32) -- 30%
Shawn Crable (25) -- 60%
Tully Banta-Cain (29) -- 25%
Pierre Woods (27) -- 25%
Vince Redd (24) -- 10%

That would make the average age per snap of the '09 linebackers 27.82 years old. That's a full year lower than last year's age, and four and a half years younger than the age of the group that was part of the AFC championship team.

Pats726 · 06-20-2009, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmt57

So does this mean that fans of other teams and members of the national media are going to stop repeating the 'old-and-slow' phrase now? Will their new catch phrase be "green and inexperienced" this season? It's also worth mentioning that with Rodney Harrison retired, the Pats are younger at safety as well.

Here's a closer look at the age of last year's linebackers and who was getting the playing time.
Final Defensive Snapshot

ILB Jerod Mayo (22) -- 857 of 950 snaps (90 percent)
OLB Mike Vrabel (33) -- 825 of 950 (87 percent)
OLB Adalius Thomas (31) -- 466 of 950 (49 percent)
ILB Tedy Bruschi (35) -- 399 of 950 (42 percent)
ILB Gary Guyton (23) -- 300 of 950 (32 percent)
OLB Pierre Woods (26) -- 247 of 950 (26 percent)
ILB Junior Seau (39) -- 178 of 950 (19 percent)
OLB Rosevelt Colvin (31) -- 161 of 950 (17 percent)
OLB Vince Redd (23) -- 35 of 950 (4 percent)

That works out to an average age of 28.99 per snap for the 2008 linebackers. That would have been lower if not for the injuries that resulted in Bruschi playing more often, and Seau and Colvin having to return.

There's no total by Reiss for the 2007 season, but I did find these two individual games for comparison.

12/07 vs Dolphins
LB Mike Vrabel – 69 of 69
LB Adalius Thomas – 67 of 69
LB Junior Seau – 57 of 69
LB Tedy Bruschi – 46 of 69
LB Eric Alexander – 2 of 69
LB Larry Izzo – 2 of 69
LB Pierre Woods – 2 of 69

10/07 vs Dolphins
OLB Rosevelt Colvin -- 63 of 70
OLB Mike Vrabel -- 58 of 70
ILB Adalius Thomas -- 58 of 70
ILB Tedy Bruschi -- 44 of 70
ILB Junior Seau -- 38 of 70
OLB Pierre Woods -- 15 of 70

Collectively, the '07 stats for those two games were:
Mike Vrabel (32) - 127 of 139 (91%)
Adalius Thomas (30) - 125 of 139 (90%)
Junior Seau (38) - 95 of 139 (68%)
Tedy Bruschi (34) - 90 of 139 (65%)
Rosevelt Colvin (30) - 63 of 139 (45%)
Pierre Woods (25) - 17 of 139 (12%)
Eric Alexander (25) - 2 of 139 (1%)
Larry Izzo (33) - 2 of 139 (1%)

Granted, not as accurate since it's based on two games rather than the whole season, but it is revealing when you look at the ages of the guys that were getting playing time. The average age per snap for the '07 linebackers was 32.47 years old.

Now to take it a step further, what would the projections be for the 2009 season? I realize this is just a guesstimate, and one or more of these players may be cut, injured, etc., but I just wanted to see how this would work out, age-wise.

Jerod Mayo (23) -- 90%
Adalius Thomas (32) -- 80%
Tedy Bruschi (36) -- 40%
Gary Guyton (24) -- 40%
Paris Lenon (32) -- 30%
Shawn Crable (25) -- 60%
Tully Banta-Cain (29) -- 25%
Pierre Woods (27) -- 25%
Vince Redd (24) -- 10%

That would make the average age per snap of the '09 linebackers 27.82 years old. That's a full year lower than last year's age, and four and a half years younger than the age of the group that was part of the AFC championship team.

A very good analysis...yes no "old aging linebacker" slogans... and that is really good for the team..one can't make these transformations quickly..but over time. Last year was a BIG jump and would have been more so if for injuries. ALl really looks like a breakout year for a few of the young ones.

***jmt57*** · 06-20-2009, 02:03 PM

For the sake of comparison, here are the average ages of some other teams' primary linebackers.

Steelers - 28.25
James Harrison 31, Lawrence Timmons 23, LaMarr Woodley 25, James Farrior 34

Colts - 27.25
Gary Brackett 29, Freddy Keiaho 27, Clint Session 25, Tyjuan Hagler 28

Chargers - 27.5
Shawne Merriman 25, Shaun Phillips 28, Stephen Cooper 30, Tim Dobbins 27

Ravens 29.67
Ray Lewis 34, Terrell Suggs 27, Jarret Johnson 28

Titans - 29.0
Keith Bullock 32, David Thornton 31, Stephen Tulloch 24

Jets - 28.25
Bart Scott 29, Calvin Pace 29, Bryan Thomas 30, David Harris 25

Dolphins - 30.0
Joey Porter 32, Channing Crowder 26, Jason Taylor 35, Akin Ayodele 30, Matt Roth 27

Bills - 26.67
Paul Posluszny 25, Kawika Mitchell 30, Keith Ellison 25

captain stone · 06-20-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayClay

Of course we lost McGinest Vrabel Colvin and Seau to get younger.
IF we have players that replace that talent somewhat, we've got younger.
Mayo's obviously "getting younger".
Until others prove themselves as starters, we're just holding tryouts.

IOW, it's important to have youth; it's more important, though, to have young talent.
The question becomes, therefore: in Woods, Crable & Redd, do we have young talent, or just young JAGs? I know what we have in the other LBs.

I would feel much better about the talent/youth issue there if the FO had drafted Barwin/Sintim and/or Sidbury (for OLB), and had signed Andre Davis (for ILB) instead of Alexander & Ciurciu.
Oh well; maybe Travis LaBoy and/or Antwan Peek get healthy, or Willie and/or Rosie re-sign. And if the ILBs need help, Napoleon Harris is still avail., and there's always Junior.
If any or all of that occurs, then so much for the youth movement.

Synovia · 06-21-2009, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain stone

IOW, it's important to have youth; it's more important, though, to have young talent.
The question becomes, therefore: in Woods, Crable & Redd, do we have young talent, or just young JAGs? I know what we have in the other LBs.

I would feel much better about the talent/youth issue there if the FO had drafted Barwin/Sintim and/or Sidbury (for OLB), and had signed Andre Davis (for ILB) instead of Alexander & Ciurciu.
Oh well; maybe Travis LaBoy and/or Antwan Peek get healthy, or Willie and/or Rosie re-sign. And if the ILBs need help, Napoleon Harris is still avail., and there's always Junior.
If any or all of that occurs, then so much for the youth movement.

Why do you think your judgement of talent is better than the front offices? They obviously deemed these free agents to not fit very well, or just not be very good.