MVP Watch - Page 10 - New England Patriots Forums

DocHoliday · 11-28-2012, 11:37 PM

Ill also say this - the Brady love will suddenly appear after he retires. And that is the mark of a true great.

Ivan · 11-28-2012, 11:52 PM

I think Brady would have to have a big edge in pretty much every meaningful category if they end up with the same records or close to that. The media is going to give Manning a big edge for being on a new team, and if they end up with similar records and stats they will cite that as the reason Manning should get it.

Seanzayyy · 11-29-2012, 12:01 AM

Here's the problem with the MVP award:

What does MVP mean? Most Valuable Player. Well, what does that mean? The player on the team that increases that team's winning percentage in the most significant margin. Well, how do we operationalize that? We can't. There are simply too many contributing factors or "what ifs" that we really can't determine which player is the MVP. We play the "what if" game. What if Brady went down. What if Peterson went down. Oh, but the Broncos have a solid defense, the Pats don't. Blah blah blah, it's all subjective. There's no formula. No numbers.

MVP also means, which is how it's most frequently used, the best player, or the player with the most gaudy stats. That's a lot easier to operationalize, since we can actually use statistics and crunch numbers. Gaudy stats may not equal most valuable, however.

If they changed the name from MVP to Best Player of the Year, then the current form of choosing the MVP would suffice.

DocHoliday · 11-29-2012, 12:38 AM

Consider that many feel MVP is Most Valuable... across the LEAGUE.

If you look at it that way, either interpretation makes sense

Shed83 · 11-29-2012, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob0729

First, when did I say the Pats had a very good defense? I said it was decent and much better than the Colts' defense. Down the stretch, they held four out of five teams to 7 points or less. Against the Bears, they let up one garbage time TD when it was 36-0 midway through the third. They gave up a garbage time TD (up 38-0 with 2:11 left in the game) against the Dolphins. The Pats' defense was very good down the stretch of 2010 in the regular season.

Second, Matt Flynn had a good game, but nothing like his 480 yard, 6 TD game last year against a good Lions team. He threw for something like 250 yards, 3 TDs, and 1 INT. It was a very good game for him, but let's not make it sound like he was a stud.

Third, you are skewing the combined stats for Manning a bit by combining them. Against the Giants (won 38-14), Manning threw for 255 yards, 3 TDs, and 0 INTs. Against the Pats (lost 31-28), he threw for 396 yards, 4 TDs, and 3 INTs (Colts could only rush for 71 yards on 20 carries). Against, the Cowboys (won 38-35 in OT) he threw for 365 yards, 2 TDs, and 4 INTs (because the Colts could only rush for 40 yards on 17 carries). Against the Eagles (lost 26-24), he thew for 294 yards,1 TD, and 2 INTs (the Colts rushed for 62 yards on 19 carries). Against the Chargers (lost 36-14), he threw for 285 yards, 2 TDs, and 4 INTs (the Colts rushed for 24 yards on 13 carries).

Fourth, My numbers show above that Manning was the offense. When the running game stalled (which was often), he was forced to air it out.

Hey Robo whilst i agree with the underlining theme in your arguments that the MVP should be the most Valuable player not the best player i just cant agree with you on the example that you are highlighting.

The part of your post that is in bold confirms to me that Brady was more valuable i.e Manning threw as many interceptions in just one game as Brady did in an entire 16 game season whilst throwing a couple more TDs on the season.

I just dont think there is an argument in this instance but i do get that in the wording MVP there has been some undeserving recipients of the award. They should just do what we do in Soccer and name it the POTY 'player of the year' award. Its pretty much the way its decided anyway so the name change would remove the ambiguity!

brdmaverick · 11-29-2012, 08:08 AM

Not only are the stats compared (Brady would still win that), but the media loves to talk about overall value to the team and tend to give Manning a leg up there?

But why?

For one, the Broncos have shown that they can win even with Tim Tebow leading them (who undeniably is a backup quarterback).

Two, the Patriots defensive woes have been so well documented, it should be obvious to the media and everyone that not only has Brady been great BUT HE HAS NEEDED TO BE GREAT to win. It's not like every game is a blowout where Brady is just padding stats.

TBradyOwnsYou · 11-29-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob0729

And years Brady deserved the MVP like 2006 were pedestrian years for his stats.

I do agree that the league MVP is sham based on stats (which you are implying) and popularity than truly who is the MVP, but I think the MVP deserves to go to the person who was the most valuable player on his team. In 2010, the Colts were Peyton Manning. Without him and with an average QB, they would have won three to four games. They were that bad.

Brady won it because the Pats went 14-2 (when many people were predicting the decline of the Pats that season and the Jets overtaking him) instead of 10-6 like the Colts did. Again, it is the dog and pony show of the league MVP.

I don't think Manning was better than Brady that year, but he was far more important to his team than Brady was. The 2010 Pats could have had a winning record with an average QB, the Colts couldn't have won 6 games without Manning that year.

So, the MVP award should now be based on your feelings instead of what it's been based on for the past [forever] number of years? Interesting. Making the argument for your case based on what you think COULD have happened if things had happened the way they did not... also an interesting choice.

As fun as speculation and thought games are, using them to discuss reality tends to derail any real conversation and destroy your credibility in said conversation.

The facts of the matter are that the MVP is voted on by 50 people who have chosen historically the person with the greatest personal statistics in that season. They also greatly favor quarterbacks over any other position. They also LOVE giant foreheads.

BradyManny · 11-29-2012, 01:26 PM

It's disgusting how Manning gets handed the MVP award unless he does something to lose it. He's already won a couple defacto trophies before, I'm sure he'll get it this year based on the Broncos remaining schedule.

The reality is that while the stats may look equal on paper, Manning's stats have some padding in them. He has thrown some meaningful picks that put them in huge holes in games, and he has thrown some ultimately meaningless TDs in games they were getting blownout (OTOH - 2 late ones vs Houston and 2 more vs Patriots, for instance).

The Brady led Pats have scored a league high 42 touchdowns on offense.

The Manning led Broncos have scored 32.

Basically, the Pats are scoring a touchdown more per game on offense - the fact that we're having Ridley pound it in instead of having Brady toss a 1 yard TD pass is why Brady doesn't have more TD passes than Peyton.

We're scoring a TD on a whopping 35% of our drives, next closest is New Orleans with 31%, from there, Denver comes in third with 26%. We're also scoring about 3 points per drive, which is 3/4 a point higher than Denver.

This Patriots offense is destroying teams right now - and considering Brady has been without a full arsenal of weaponry most of the season, I have a hard time buying Peyton Manning - at this point in the season - deserves MVP over him. Now, you might argue Ryan or JJ Watt or someone else deserve MVP. That's fine. And you might argue Manning might earn it down the stretch. That's fine too.

But to this point, for someone with a straight face to argue that Peyton Manning is the clearcut MVP choice, I would laugh in said face.

BradyManny · 11-29-2012, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob0729

The 2010 Pats could have had a winning record with an average QB, the Colts couldn't have won 6 games without Manning that year.

We'll never know how many games the 2011 Colts would've won without Peyton Manning because the whole organization tanked the season the moment he was declared done.

The 2012 Colts are 7-4 without Peyton Manning right now, even with several core guys from the Manning years defecting to Denver.

The Broncos went 8-8 last year with a guy who can't even beat out Mark Sanchez. Does it mean anything? Not really.

I don't read into any of those situations just like I don't read into Cassel winning 11 games in 2008 with the 16 game winning team Brady led in 2007. You can't make these comparisons on a 53 man roster with wildly differing degrees of difficulty in schedules from year to year.

ivanvamp · 11-29-2012, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradyManny

It's disgusting how Manning gets handed the MVP award unless he does something to lose it. He's already won a couple defacto trophies before, I'm sure he'll get it this year based on the Broncos remaining schedule.

The reality is that while the stats may look equal on paper, Manning's stats have some padding in them. He has thrown some meaningful picks that put them in huge holes in games, and he has thrown some ultimately meaningless TDs in games they were getting blownout (OTOH - 2 late ones vs Houston and 2 more vs Patriots, for instance).

The Brady led Pats have scored a league high 42 touchdowns on offense.

The Manning led Broncos have scored 32.

Basically, the Pats are scoring a touchdown more per game on offense - the fact that we're having Ridley pound it in instead of having Brady toss a 1 yard TD pass is why Brady doesn't have more TD passes than Peyton.

We're scoring a TD on a whopping 35% of our drives, next closest is New Orleans with 31%, from there, Denver comes in third with 26%. We're also scoring about 3 points per drive, which is 3/4 a point higher than Denver.

This Patriots offense is destroying teams right now - and considering Brady has been without a full arsenal of weaponry most of the season, I have a hard time buying Peyton Manning - at this point in the season - deserves MVP over him. Now, you might argue Ryan or JJ Watt or someone else deserve MVP. That's fine. And you might argue Manning might earn it down the stretch. That's fine too.

But to this point, for someone with a straight face to argue that Peyton Manning is the clearcut MVP choice, I would laugh in said face.

I don't think Manning should win the MVP, at least if the vote were held today (who knows what will happen over the next 5 weeks). But that doesn't mean he isn't an MVP-caliber player having an MVP-caliber season. The guy has been tremendous and he deserves a ton of credit. He very much is having an MVP-caliber season. That Brady has been better doesn't diminish what Peyton has done.