RayClay

Had to LOL! on this one. Wasn't there a sixth round pick that was platooned in college?

Spahn?... We have a CB off and on named Spann.

Maybe Spach? Don't mean to be hypercritical, but that's a long ass post to start off like that.

Good luck with it.

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jeffbiologist

Hey, I have been keeping track. This thread was to touch off a discussion not a bomb,lol. I have been a draft nut long before BB got here and will be after he is gone. No one is perfect, and this forum is nothing if not an outlet for WHAT IFs right?
Those guys from 06....are any of em lighting the world on fire? Thomas was a 3rd rd who was hurt, we will need him to grow into a role this year right? SG was a 4th, one of the few immediate starters I was talking about. OC is upgradable dont you think? Smith? Woods?? Did any of those 3 do anything on the field this year that would make me think that they deserve their jobs without competition? No, right?
Its accepted that we dont draft BPA. But going into day 2 on sunday we had 5 picks, in better position than anyone else pretty much right? I understand and stand behind the slight reach on Wheatley because he returns kicks....and in the 5th rd we draft a KR?? Why not a guy for competition on either one of the lines? And I think you see how I made an arguement to get J.Charles with that 3rd rd pick instead of that trade....If we need a RB next year when Morris' contract is up we will have to use that 2nd rd pick to get a guy like him anyways...and he wont have a year to learn how to block.
Our best drafts have happened when we get like 1 of everything.....and let the best players win the spots in camp. The worst drafts we have had is when we go all offense or all defense or MAYBE in this case all LB/CB. It might be coincidence, but the league has documented that drafting for need doesnt work. We have modified that to fit our value/trade system pretty well but the draft is the draft.
How a player develops has more to do with opportunity and coaching than talent in our system. I dont think its fair to compare drafts 2-3 years down the line because different players are given different opportunities with different coaches. There are just too many variables. No one can use a blanket statement to cover anything convincingly. It was the OPPORTUNITY part of this that I was trying to argue.
To an outsider(all of us)it would seem easy to say we can get a better guy than A,B,C.....but maybe BB is attached to these guys, maybe they have pictures of him naked or something. I dont know.

DaBruinz

If you are that ignorant that you are still waiting then you are beyond help and truly had NO interest in doing anything but being an idiot.

Listen, don't tell me what to do. You are the one making the idiotic claims that just are NOT backed up by facts. One of your claims was that Kelley Washington hadn't caught a ball in 3 years. It was a FALSE CLAIM and I showed you it. Then you said you did the research. You clearly hadn't since you couldn't spell a players name right and you didn't get your fact straight on Washington. As someone else said, you're now changing the rules. Its pathetic.

You weren't addressing a damn thing. So please stop claiming you were. YOU made a bogus statement and it was proven WRONG.

BTW, Since you missed it, the Patriots were carrying 7 WRs (Moss, Welker, Gaffney, Stallworh, Brown, Jackson, and Washington) at one point last year. Its also extremely ignorant of you to think that there is ONLY 1 Special Teams slot available between the 3 of them. See, you have forgotten that Willie Andrews and Ray Ventrone are definitely NOT guaranteed a spot on this roster. Andrews because he's facing serious jail time for possession with intent to distribute and Ventrone because he's just not that good. So, if you take into consideration that Washington was on the team at the same time as Andrews and Ventrone, you could, in theory, have Washington, Aiken and Slater (who played more safety and CB and STs than he did WR) on the team at the same time without ANY issues.

Well, who are these two "PANSY" WRs you are talking about? Gaffney? Moss? Welker, maybe? Dude, you are floundering like a fish out of water, grasping for straws as you drown. Yes, there is the a possibility that 2 of the WRs could get hurt during the season. But, AGAIN, there is not enough positions (or cap space) to carry 5 starting WRs on the team. Also, since Washington made catches, he can also run routes. I actually watched him do it in TC last year and in the pre-season.

Gee, did I miss where the Pats just drafted 7 players who are all 23 or younger. That's not making the TEAM younger? They also signed 5-7 UDFA who will be in TC. Isn't that also making the team younger?

Instead of being stupid and ignorant, how about you check the average age of the team right now instead of just spewing generalisms. OH WAIT. You can't be bothered because it totally destroys your "theory."

Your "argument" on the trade, in principal, with SD is as holed as a spaghetti strainer and shows your own lack of foresight. Seriously.

What "KNEE JERK" reaction? Again, I have to question whether you actually follow this team or not. BB and Pioli have not made any "knee jerk" reactions with the 1st round pick. And if you truly believe that, then you just continue to show your lack of intelligence on the matter.

You claim to be a scientist yet you don't know the difference between a hypothetical and a theory? Some scientist.

Your whole "theory" that BB and Pioli are "sloughing" the draft is WRONG and its been proven WRONG. I've torn your entire "theory" apart, putting more holes in it than you'd find in swiss cheese. Others have also pointed out the flaws in your thinking. You just refuse to acknowledge it.

Actually, no, it doesn't make for an interesting argument. In fact, it shows a total lack of intelligence and a lack of understanding of everything that BB and Pioli have done over the last 8 years in drafting players.

As for your "binkie", Everyone has them. I actually liked Woodyard. I also like Goff for this team. Dryheat liked Quentin Demps. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

DaBruinz

Forgive me for doubting the veracity of your comments. You've not shown anything to support that you are a draft nut.


Why do they have to be "lighting the world on fire," to be making a difference? They've only played 2 years so their true value isn't known yet. However, since you brought them up, lets review them:

Maroney - had some injuries his rookie year. Started off the year well, got hurt, but ended the year extremely well. Proved that he is a home run threat.

Jackson - Blew out his ACL on special teams in Jan 2007. The 2007/2008 season was a wash as he recovered from his injury.

Dave Thomas - Had a good rookie year. Got injured early in year 2. Looks to be a promising, all-around TE.

Garrett Mills - a player without a true position. Had great measurables. Was injured his rookie season. Pats tried to get him on to the practice squad, but Minnesota grabbed him.

Gostkowski - Has a tremendous leg on kick-offs. Is slowly gaining his field goal confidence.

Ryan O'Callaghan - As a rookie, started off the season at RT for the injured Kaczur. Then got injured himself, suffering a 2nd concussion inside of a year. Hasn't been the same player since.

Jeremy Mincey - Didn't try hard enough at camp because he thought he'd be given the whole season to develop and learn the system. He learned that BB expects 100% of every player all the time.

Dan Stevenson - Couldn't beat out Yates and Hochstein for a back-up position.

LeKevin Smith - Shows a lot of promise as a back-up DE in a similar role to Jarvis Green. Time will tell if he can make the next step to be like Jarvis.

That's a GOOD draft, whether or not you acknowledge it.

They drafted a special teams ACE. Not just a guy who can return kicks. Slater is also a gunner on punt teams and he's in on kick coverage as well. He's also a reserve safety. Hmm.. Sounds a LOT like a replacement for Willie Andrews.

The problem is that your "argument" doesn't take into consideration several things. One of which is how the player is perceived by the Patriots. And whether or not he showed them that he can come in and review the plays and figure out where he made his mistakes and learn from them.

So, Morris is gone? The Pats take a 2nd round RB or sign a RB who is out there. How do you know that the guy will be like Morris and not like Faulk? Why won't he have a year to learn how to block? Is Kevin Faulk going to suddenly retire? And you are discounting the idea that Morris may, god forbid, re-sign with the Patriots or the Patriots might find someone else BETTER in free agency.

Really? The best drafts have happened when they got 1 of everything? So, the year that they took Mankins and Kaczur wasn't a good year? Hmm.. 2004 was a good year and the Pats took 2 safeties in Scott and Reid. Who were both busts. 2003 was one of the best years. That was when Belichick took Samuel and Wilson. Not to mention Ty Warren and Dan Klecko.

None of the Patriots drafts have been all offense or all defense. NONE. In fact, one of the better drafts (probably about 3rd) was the 2002 draft when they got Graham, Branch, Green and Givens. All of them were significant pieces of the 2003 and 2004 SBs.

Your summationsare just horrid and definitely not researched.


Then why are you doing so? You are doing exactly what you say people can't do. And this opportunity you mention that you've failed to argue every step of the way. Because you can't prove, in any way, shape or form, that the players you think they should have taken would have been better in this situation than the players they did take.


UGH. Again with the stupid comments. BB isn't emotionally attached to these players. Its a business. Its how he's treated it every step of the way.

jeffbiologist

RayClay

Are you that silly? If they thought the guy would improve their team they'd pick him. This isn't miss congeniality.

http://www.nfldraftdog.com/2008_nfl_...y_woodyard.htm

I wouldn't lie, I just googled the last name and this is the first site i saw. They loved the guy but.....

Time to take a deep breath and come back to earth. The game show part of the program is over. The real games start in September.

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Ungeheuer

You want evidence that your theory is wrong? Just look at the makeup of the roster, and the direction it's moving in.

We won a Super Bowl in 2001 with a team made up largely of veteran free agents who were castoffs from other clubs. The defense was built around old vets -- Bobby Hamilton, Anthony Pleasant, Bryan Cox, Roman Phifer, Otis Smith, Lawyer Milloy. Sure there were some young guys (Seymour, notably) but on the whole it was an old defense. On offense it was sort of the same thing. Light was the only young player on the line. Brady was the only skill player still in the first half of his career (Faulk was in his prime). The roster had a lot of young players on it, but few of them played significant roles.

Fast forward to now: the team wins two more Super Bowls, and in the process gets younger across the board. On offense, Brady, Faulk, Morris and Moss are older, as is Matt Light -- but the rest of the line is home-grown and young. You have young talent still looking up at its best years at almost every position: Watson and Thomas at tight end, Chad Jackson and Welker at wideout, Maroney at running back, Kaczur, Neal, Koppen, Mankins and O'Callghan on the line, Cassel at quarterback. The only thing really missing on offense is a young left tackle prospect. On defense it's the same thing. The line is all either in its prime or looking up at it: Seymour, Warren, Wilfork, Green, Wright, LK Smith. We had a problem with the linebacking corps, but now we have Mayo, Crable, and Hobson as younger players to go with Pierre Woods, who might still be a player, and AD Thomas, who's still in his prime.

In the secondary, we're now undergoing the second revamping since the Milloy-Jones-Smith-Law days. We got younger with Wilson, Samuel and Gay before; those players matured and left at premium prices (a direct result of the team playing so well) and now we're replacing them all over again with Hobbs, Sanders, Meriweather, Wheatley and Wilhite. Almost all of these players on both sides of the ball are home-grown and came through the draft. The Pats went to four Super Bowls in seven years with several sets of home-grown tackles: Light-Robinson-Randall, Light-Ashworth, Light-Gorin, Light-Kaczur/O'Callaghan. They made it with four different sets of corners, with only Poole and O-Smith not home-grown. The point is that instead of clinging to an aging core and plugging the holes with older players/free agents -- which is what you seem to think they've done -- they've done exactly the opposite, jettisoning older vets along the way and replacing them as much as possible with younger players. The 2007-8 team was therefore in most ways a younger team than the 2001 and 2003 teams. They were only old in the back seven on D, and they just spent this past year fixing that problem. They go into next year with good youth at every position group, even at linebacker. Even their specialists are getting younger: Gostkowski replaces Vinatieri, and maybe now Dragosavich replaces Hanson. They've done what nobody else has done, stay good while getting younger through the draft.

Your complaint seems to be that the Pats didn't get guys like Manningham, Jamaal Charles and Wesley Woodyard, and overdrafted for need. How do you know? What's your basis for saying the guys we drafted won't help? Last year's draft was strange, I'll give you that -- they seemed disinterested in the whole draft -- but it sure looked like they drafted players they hoped would pan out this year. Slater, if he pans out, fits a definite need. The team hasn't had stability at the KR position in ages, and with Izzo getting older they need a young special teams ace (yes, you have to inject youth into the special teams unit, too). Ruud is a draftable player at a position where they don't have a good backup. Why not take him? You'd prefer Wesley Woodyard (who weighs what, 220 pounds?) playing inside linebacker in a 3-4 defense? Who knows, maybe you're right -- but you can't look at the Pats roster and argue that they don't care about the low rounds. The low rounds are what made this team.

As for the trade with SD... the Pats do this every year and it almost always pans out. They did it last year and got Mayo out of it. They did it with Baltimore and we got Vince Wilfork out of it. If you're the Pats next year and you have four picks in the first three rounds as opposed to three, that might be the difference between getting that first-round stud and not getting him. No other team has gotten more out of these kinds of trades. It's bizarre to me that you would even question them.

BKBroiler

I'm sorry but saying that the front office could've gotten more value when they traded back to 10 is the one thing that people have been critcizing that bugs me the most.

1.) New Orleans offered 2 1's and a 2 for the fifth pick because they wanted Glenn Dorsey. With the Chiefs also being interested in Dorsey, New Orleans was going to need to offer a king's ransom to persuade KC to trade out.

2.) Although NO liked Sedrick Ellis, it is obvious who they really coveted based on what they offered to move up to get Ellis.

3.) Cincy may not have ever wanted Sedrick Ellis or Rivers and Ellis could have graded out the same on their draft board. Heck, they may have even been interested in Harvey at 9, which may have prompted the Jags to trade up. Any of these situations would result in Cincy staying put at 9. None of us know unless a report leaks out. If that was the case, there was no way to get them into a bidding war to trade up.

4.) Be happy with the 3rd round pick. Although it may not meet your value chart, I would say the Pats received good value because they were able to save some money by trading down. Also, the pick was used to take an OLB Crable who should turn into a rotational player at the worst. Finally it made the earlier third rounder expendable allowing the Pats to acquire a 2nd next year. Based on projections, that should give them 1 1st, 2 2nd's and 2 3rd's next year, which gives them flexibility again.

ausbacker

This is a fantastic post. Kudos to you!

alvinnf

Forget the football nonsense of this thread, who does'nt finish their beer, that's what I would like to know