Pats looking at LB O'Brien Schofield - Page 2 - New England Patriots Forums

MaineMan · 01-21-2010, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seneschal2

Yes, BB has a size preference for his OLBs -- at least in terms of the draft. But that may be in his perfect world. AD, TBC, Burgess, and Ninkovich are all listed as 6-2, with TBC as the only draftee.

So, BB may hope for one of the "prototypical" OLBs, but if the only ones available are 6-2 -- is he going to pass?

I sometimes wonder if a concern that smaller guys may get washed out against the run is a selection factor, at least recently. Two or the top four running teams in the league are in our division. This season, 10 of 17 games were against teams in the top ten and, in 2010, 9 regular season games will be against top ten running teams.

That said, it was interesting that BB had guys who were sorta "hybrid" DE/OLB in sub-packages (TBC, Burgess, Ninkovich - 6'2", around 260 lbs) - more 4-3 DE-sized than prototypical 34 OLB or 34 DE size. I've been wondering where (if anywhere) BB might be going with this - trying to generate a better pass-rush without sacrificing run defense? If so, I'm not sure it worked consistently well, though that may have just been the particular players.

***mayoclinic*** · 01-21-2010, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaineMan

I sometimes wonder if a concern that smaller guys may get washed out against the run is a selection factor, at least recently. Two or the top four running teams in the league are in our division. This season, 10 of 17 games were against teams in the top ten and, in 2010, 9 regular season games will be against top ten running teams.

That said, it was interesting that BB had guys who were sorta "hybrid" DE/OLB in sub-packages (TBC, Burgess, Ninkovich - 6'2", around 260 lbs) - more 4-3 DE-sized than prototypical 34 OLB or 34 DE size. I've been wondering where (if anywhere) BB might be going with this - trying to generate a better pass-rush without sacrificing run defense? If so, I'm not sure it worked consistently well, though that may have just been the particular players.

That's not a new phenomenon. BB has always preferred height and length in his OLBs, and has valued the ability to set the edge and play the run above pure pass rushing. We've had 6'5" 270# Willie McGinest, 6'4" 260# Mike Vrabel, and 6'2" 270# Adalius Thomas. Our smaller guys were 6'4" 250# Bryan Cox, 6'3" 250# Roosevelt Colvin and 6'4" 250# Matt Chatham.

I'm guessing, but I think BB's logic is something like the following:

1. He prioritizes LBs who can set the edge, play the run, take on blockers, read and react, block the passing lanes and cover over those who are more pure speed rushers. That's what is required in his 2 gap scheme.

2. Being able to set the edge and play the run requires a certain amount of heft. 240 lb. OLBs aren't going to stand up well over the course of a season to the pounding that they take. He's looking for guys in the 250-270 lb. range with the lateral mobility, quick hips, agility and explosiveness to do all the things that are required.

3. Height is a factor in 2 ways. First, he likes tall guys who can get their arms up and block the passing lanes. 2nd, height is a surrogate for weight. There are 6'2" guys who can play at 260-270 effectively (Adalius Thomas, LaMarr Woodley), but most are going to be to slow. A guy with a 6'4"-6'6" frame is much more likely to be able to carry the kind of bulk needed to stand up against blockers.

As I've argued on other threads in this forum, most of the "3-4 OLB hybrids" that draftniks talk about probably aren't of interest to BB because they are too light to be able to set the edge and play the run effectively. BB tried taking 6'5" Shawn Crable with the idea of bulking him up to the 260 lb. range where he would be more effective against the run, but so far he has had trouble putting on weight. 6'4" 248# Ricky Sapp, 6'4" 254# Sergio Kindle, and 6'3" 257# Jerry Hughes are all options (especially for the weak side where BB has played 250# guys like Colvin and Cox in the past), but I really see BB taking guys who are more college DE's then DE/OLB hybrids, but who have the size/speed and agility to play 3-4 OLB for us. Guys like 6'6" 270# Carlos Dunlap, 6'6" 265# Jason Pierre-Paul, 6'5" 265# Greg Hardy and 6'6" 260# Austen Lane. Next year there will be 6'6" 270# Greg Romeus, 6'3" 263# Jeremy Beal and possible 6'5" 260# Robert Quinn and 6'6" 260# Aldon Smith. There's more guys with the kind of length, size and athleticism that BB seems to like coming out in the next 2 years than ever before.

Nonentity · 01-21-2010, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seneschal2

Yes, BB has a size preference for his OLBs -- at least in terms of the draft. But that may be in his perfect world. AD, TBC, Burgess, and Ninkovich are all listed as 6-2, with TBC as the only draftee.

So, BB may hope for one of the "prototypical" OLBs, but if the only ones available are 6-2 -- is he going to pass?

I asked Mike Reiss this week to try to dig out Bill's comments on the size/speed he likes in OLBs, and he brought it up in an answer to someone else.

Quote:

Q: Hi Mike, I really enjoyed your story about the Patriots' draft record. It seems to me that an area people frequently overlook is how the Pats have consistently been drafting towards the bottom, so I thought the comparison to the Colts was really interesting. I'm curious, one of the things I've heard is that the Patriots have very strict standards that they like for each position. I was wondering if you had a sense of what the standards were for each position? For example, I heard (maybe from you) that the tipping point in drafting Brady was his height. If you have time, could you give a breakdown of what the Pats value by position (height, weight, lateral quickness, top end speed, etc.)? -- Gus (L.A.)

A: Thanks Gus. I think context is important in situations like these. It seems to me that if you are going to assess the Patriots' draft record, it's only fair to compare it to teams who pick in the same neighborhood each year, while also considering that the deeper you get into the draft the harder it is to consistently hit on picks. It's not defending the Patriots, but more presenting a fair picture in relation to the environment in which they are competing. As for the Patriots' standards for each position, I don't have a complete breakdown. But one position that we dissected quite a bit last year was outside linebacker. The Patriots would prefer someone who is 6-foot-4 or 6-5 and who could run 4.6 or 4.65. Here is a comment from Belichick around draft time. "I think the outside linebacker group this year was a little bit different. Generally speaking, I'd say there were more shorter players, maybe a little less speed than what we've seen, but maybe a little more power with good production. There weren't a lot of 4.6, 4.65 guys in the [40-yard dash], and not a lot of 6-4, 6-5 guys. There was a much smaller pool of those players."

Patriots mailbag full of offseason questions - ESPN Boston

dryheat44 · 01-21-2010, 08:29 AM

Word out of Shrine practice is that he's looked very fluid in coverage. He's not going to be the impact pass-rusher we covet. So physical attributes may need not apply.

Koettbulle · 01-21-2010, 08:59 AM

Can he play inside in the 3-4? His "short" stature might be a positive inside taking on guards rather than tackles.

Metaphors · 01-21-2010, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koettbulle

Can he play inside in the 3-4? His "short" stature might be a positive inside taking on guards rather than tackles.

Brought this up in a previous thread noting the similar situation with drafting Bruschi. I think this only makes sense if Schofield has similar intangibles to Bruschi.

Worth noting that the coaches at the Shrine Bowl have taken a practice look at Schofield inside. So while I still think it is a long shot and the conversion may take a while, it may not be out of the realm of possibility.

MaineMan · 01-21-2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphors

Brought this up in a previous thread noting the similar situation with drafting Bruschi. I think this only makes sense if Schofield has similar intangibles to Bruschi.

Worth noting that the coaches at the Shrine Bowl have taken a practice look at Schofield inside. So while I still think it is a long shot and the conversion may take a while, it may not be out of the realm of possibility.

Yeah, I saw that, too.

Based on the consensus (more or less) of practice notes I've been reading from Lammey (DraftGuys), Reuter (CBS) and Bunting (NFP), DE Doug Worthington (6'5", 288#, projected 4.96) has been the only consistently proficient front seven guy there. Average projection of several sites (as of December) had him going in the 7th round. I presume his stock is rising, though. I'll certainly be watching both him and Schofield Saturday.

PatsCanDoIt · 01-21-2010, 12:42 PM

He already made the transition to linebacker for the Badgers. He was able to pick 8 sacks while playing linebacker. That's what the fftoolbox site said atleast. He seems like McKenzie insurance at ILB to me. Either that or outside in a 4-3.

The reason Ninkovich is still in the league is his agility. His short shuttle is really quick for 260lbs. Well, Crable isn't agile, strong or explosive. He just runs fast in a line. After height and weight comes short shuttle, vertical and college production.

Like what Mayoclinic said, Bill has a number of qualifiers for OLBs before passrushing.

***Box_O_Rocks*** · 01-21-2010, 03:12 PM

In addition to Schofield, watch for Dexter Davis and Jason Beauchamp in the game. Davis is a DE converting like Schofield and Beauchamp is a 3-4 OLB from the UNLV system - both are getting positive press from their practices this week.

MaineMan · 01-21-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsCanDoIt

He already made the transition to linebacker for the Badgers. He was able to pick 8 sacks while playing linebacker. That's what the fftoolbox site said atleast. He seems like McKenzie insurance at ILB to me. Either that or outside in a 4-3.

The reason Ninkovich is still in the league is his agility. His short shuttle is really quick for 260lbs. Well, Crable isn't agile, strong or explosive. He just runs fast in a line. After height and weight comes short shuttle, vertical and college production.

Like what Mayoclinic said, Bill has a number of qualifiers for OLBs before passrushing.

I sorta remembered that about Ninkovich and Crable. But only "sorta", so I had to go look it up. Yep, Ninkovich had a 4.18 SS, 11.33 60-yd shuttle, and a 6.96 3-cone. Only guys quicker were Gocong and Kiwanuka. Crable had a (Pro Day, I think) 4.41 forty with a 1.26 10-yard split (helluva first step), but relatively poor shuttle/3-cone times.

Interestingly, it appears that Mayo, Guyton and McKenzie were all maybe a bit speedier than agile wrt Combine/ProDay numbers. Hmmm . . .