Percy Harvin Haters - New England Patriots Forums

My2Cents · 02-11-2009, 10:21 AM

All of the arguments for not drafting Percy Harvin go something like this:
:disagreement:

“The Patriots won’t draft Percy Harvin because...
(Insert your favorite Myth here.)”

Well, I’m here to debunk those Myths, whether or not they draft him.

Myth #1 – Scoring more points isn't the main concern, Defense is!

Myth Busted: In his on words, to Patriots.com, Bill Belichick says:
“I don’t think our current roster impacts too much of our plans in any draft. We draft based on what’s up there and what we feel those players can do for our football team. If you start drafting by need, or try to come out of the draft and say ‘we needed a guard, we got a guard. We needed a receiver, we got a receiver’…
“But if they can’t perform and fill that role for you competitively on the field, then you really haven’t done anything. It still comes back to drafting players that can be productive in your system.
“We have to try to take a look at each player and figure out what value they have for our team, and how they would fit into this team,” … We have to try to evaluate what the player can do for our team, and what his role would be, and how we see that developing. And try to put some kind of value on that.”

Myth #2 – He’s an injury risk.

Myth Busted: While nobody denies Harvin has injury concerns,
it's quite another thing to say that the Pats will, or even, should
pass on him due to that. Who is to say that that will continue?

BB often says that a prospect will be plagued in college by injuries
only to get to the Pros and never get injured again. Or, conversely:
He’ll be injury free in college but then spend his Pro career on IR.

But just think how much fun BB can have with the injury report now.

Myth #3 - Jeremy Maclin is a safer WR prospect because
he is ‘bigger + less injury prone.’

Myth Busted: Now you’re sounding like Lions fans. Here’s why:

They were projected by some to take Jarod Mayo in round 1.
But Jarod Mayo (knee surgery) was considered to be a medical
red flag. So, instead they all wanted Lofton, Connor or Rivers.

The Lions coaches loved Mayo. But Matt Millen did nothing
to secure him. A LOT of people thought he’d still be there in
round two. When the Pats grabbed him, the Lions traded back.

The lesson(s): Don’t stack your board according to best health.
Also, there are no guarantees. And don’t ever hire Matt Millen.
Oh, and, Maclin’s size and route running are even more suspect.

Myth #4 – Bethel Johnson was a bust.

Myth Busted: Now wait a minute. If the Pats brass thought that
Bethel Johnson was worthy of a number two pick, that is all the
more reason to believe that they would value Harvin as a #1 pick.

Johnson had a list of previous injuries and health concerns a mile
long. But, still, they saw a raw physical set of tools worth the risk.
Harvin comes in much less a risk and considerably more talented.

Myth #5 - Florida U. is historically a poor WR factory.

Myth Busted: Both BB and scouts, in general, frequently
say that you have to judge each individual prospect on his
own merits. Evaluate players, not schools. That’s only fair.

But, remember, too, that these Florida Gators are in no
way whatsoever the same Steve Spurrier Fun&Gun Gators.

Chad Jackson was a Spurrier recruit. Urban Meyer inherited him.
But Percy Harvin was recruited by Meyer, a Bill Belichick buddy.
So you’re really comparing apples to oranges here, obviously.

Myth #6 - He can't run routes.

Myth Busted – Most every WR coming into the league needs
to work on his routes. That’s a given due to the Pro-style Offense.
He rounds his routes, like most do. But why single out Harvin?

The real question is, can he develop? The answer: YES.

I’ve heard Meyer say a few times that he graded out 100%
on his assignments (100%!). That’s pretty impressive. He calls
him “a relentless competitor,” as opposed to a Chad Jackson.

He also says that Harvin has the quickest first step of anybody
that he’s ever seen. And that he’s been working on technique
with him from day one, because you can’t just run go-routes.
He also added 10lbs of muscle so he won’t be bumped at the line.

Myth #7 - You can find a Marques Colston late, instead.

Myth Busted – Why, because there is a Colston in every draft? Yet the Pats
missed him and every other Colston over the past 5 years?
That’s absurd. Colston and Boldin are exceptions, not the norm.
You don’t pass on top end talent to hunt a diamond in the rough.
With that said, there are a number of late round WR’s that I like.

Myth #8 - BB doesn't "gamble" on 1st round picks.

Myth Busted – The draft is a crapshoot. Every pick is a gamble!
Maroney, Watson, Mankins, Mayo…all these guys were risks.
Hell, even Wilfork fell for a reason, and Seymour had his doubters.

Myth # 9 – Percy Harvin = Reggie Bush.

Myth Busted – Harvin was recruited heavily by USC to be “the next
Reggie Bush.” That was their selling point. He turned them down cold.
And with good reason: He’s not Bush. He’s better.

Just to illustrate that point, as others have, Harvin averaged 4yds more
per touch than Bush did. But he did on fewer carries, and versus tougher
opponents. Moreover, Harvin can run it up the gut or burn you deep.

While Bush has been preoccupied more with scoring with Kim Kardashian
than the NFL, Harvin willingly took a backseat to Tim Tebow’s fame. All
he cares about is winning games and Championships. And it shows.

Myth # 10 - They already have Moss and Welker.

Myth Busted - Even with Moss and Welker, they shelled out big bucks for Stallworth.
Granted, Stallworth didn’t produce. But I think it shows the importance
of having that 3rd guy at WR that can make teams pay in coverage.

Harvin is just electric. It’s very rare to see players have such impact.
If he can rip off a few big gainers at Tailback at key moments, or maybe
single-handedly win a game or two on Special Teams, all the better.

See, also:

SN: Gators make sure Harvin gets his fill - College football- nbcsports.msnbc.com

***ctpatsfan77*** · 02-11-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My2Cents

Myth Busted - Even with Moss and Welker, they shelled out big bucks for Stallworth.

$700K salary
$1M/6 yr signing bonus
$1.6M roster bonus as $100K/game
$300K workout bonus

Does that sound like "big bucks" to you? [They paid Stallworth less than half the signing bonus they gave Welker.]

Also, remember they made that COA [cover our *****] deal with Stallworth before Moss fell into their laps, not after.

Metaphors · 02-11-2009, 10:44 AM

How many passes do you want Brady throwing in a game? How many touches would you have for the WR opposite Moss after Welker, Moss and everyone else gets their share? Maybe 3 to 4 max?

For Harvin or anyone else to justify a 1st round salary, those couple of touches better be spectacular. That is a lot of pressure to put on a rookie to deliver or hang the "bust" label around his neck. There are more positions on defense (ILB, CB, nickel safety) for a 1st round pick to grow into.

If Harvin is the best value at #23, then he will likely be the choice. I just don't think that will be the case. With all the picks available to the Pats, they should be able to fill those 3 to 4 touches with a solid player outside the 1st round.

***patchick*** · 02-11-2009, 10:59 AM

Your list somehow missed my objection. It goes something like this:

"At the point where the Pats are likely to have to draft Harvin, I believe other players will be available who will represent a greater upgrade to the roster."

IOW you don't have to be a "hater" to think he'd be a mistake at #23.

billdog3484 · 02-11-2009, 11:04 AM

i think i saw this show, it was on last night on the Discovery Channel

Richter · 02-11-2009, 11:10 AM

I know this won't matter because of your irrational crush on Harvin, but there is so much wrong with this, I should say something, so I'll hit on two key points: The Mayo situation is nothing like Maclin-Harvin, since Maclin will go earlier anyway, and his size and injury history are so far from suspect. Your comments just sound like sour grapes, especially considering that Maclin was the more productive player. Also, since seemingly no one remembers this, the Pats signed Stallworth BEFORE Moss was brought on board. They didn't already have Moss and Welker when he was signed as a free agent.

***DaBruinz*** · 02-11-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My2Cents

All of the arguments for not drafting Percy Harvin go something like this:
:disagreement:

“The Patriots won’t draft Percy Harvin because...
(Insert your favorite Myth here.)”

Well, I’m here to debunk those Myths, whether or not they draft him.

Myth #1 – Scoring more points isn't the main concern, Defense is!

Myth Busted: In his on words, to Patriots.com, Bill Belichick says:
“I don’t think our current roster impacts too much of our plans in any draft. We draft based on what’s up there and what we feel those players can do for our football team. If you start drafting by need, or try to come out of the draft and say ‘we needed a guard, we got a guard. We needed a receiver, we got a receiver’…
“But if they can’t perform and fill that role for you competitively on the field, then you really haven’t done anything. It still comes back to drafting players that can be productive in your system.
“We have to try to take a look at each player and figure out what value they have for our team, and how they would fit into this team,” … We have to try to evaluate what the player can do for our team, and what his role would be, and how we see that developing. And try to put some kind of value on that.”

The Pats put up plenty of points last year. The problem they had was they couldn't consistently stop the opposing offense. Their pass rush is also an issue because they can't bring pressure from all 4 LB spots the way they did in 2003 and 2004, when they had their best Pass Rush Units.

Nothing in the Belichick quote you mentioned debunks the "myth" you bring up.

Myth #2 – He’s an injury risk.

Myth Busted: While nobody denies Harvin has injury concerns,
it's quite another thing to say that the Pats will, or even, should
pass on him due to that. Who is to say that that will continue?

BB often says that a prospect will be plagued in college by injuries
only to get to the Pros and never get injured again. Or, conversely:
He’ll be injury free in college but then spend his Pro career on IR.

But just think how much fun BB can have with the injury report now.

Please show me a quote where BB has said this. Also, Harvin would have to be medically cleared by the Pats for him to be considered.

Myth #3 - Jeremy Maclin is a safer WR prospect because
he is ‘bigger + less injury prone.’

Myth Busted: Now you’re sounding like Lions fans. Here’s why:

They were projected by some to take Jarod Mayo in round 1.
But Jarod Mayo (knee surgery) was considered to be a medical
red flag. So, instead they all wanted Lofton, Connor or Rivers.

The Lions coaches loved Mayo. But Matt Millen did nothing
to secure him. A LOT of people thought he’d still be there in
round two. When the Pats grabbed him, the Lions traded back.

The lesson(s): Don’t stack your board according to best health.
Also, there are no guarantees. And don’t ever hire Matt Millen.
Oh, and, Maclin’s size and route running are even more suspect.

The Patriots stack their board according to how they rate a player. They do flag a player if he's had injury concerns regardless of whether the Pats staff cleared the person. If it comes down to two prospects that are rated equally, but one has a flag, I'd been willing to bet they take the one without the flag.

Myth #4 – Bethel Johnson was a bust.

Myth Busted: Now wait a minute. If the Pats brass thought that
Bethel Johnson was worthy of a number two pick, that is all the
more reason to believe that they would value Harvin as a #1 pick.

Johnson had a list of previous injuries and health concerns a mile
long. But, still, they saw a raw physical set of tools worth the risk.
Harvin comes in much less a risk and considerably more talented.

You really need to work on attempts to bust myths. Not to mention you are full of it regarding Bethel Johnson. Johnson had ONE injury in college. And that was a bruised spleen his senior year. Harvin has tendonitis in his knee and heel. Those are BIG red flags for someone who relies on his running ability to earn his keep.

Myth #5 - Florida U. is historically a poor WR factory.

Myth Busted: Both BB and scouts, in general, frequently
say that you have to judge each individual prospect on his
own merits. Evaluate players, not schools. That’s only fair.

But, remember, too, that these Florida Gators are in no
way whatsoever the same Steve Spurrier Fun&Gun Gators.

Chad Jackson was a Spurrier recruit. Urban Meyer inherited him.
But Percy Harvin was recruited by Meyer, a Bill Belichick buddy.
So you’re really comparing apples to oranges here, obviously.

While Jackson was a "Spurrier recruit" he thrived under Meyer. Also, if you take a look at past Florida Gator WRs, you have to go back to Cris Collingsworth to find someone who played well in the NFL.

Also, could you mention any WRs that Urban Meyer has developed at any of his coaching stops?

Myth #6 - He can't run routes.

Myth Busted – Most every WR coming into the league needs
to work on his routes. That’s a given due to the Pro-style Offense.
He rounds his routes, like most do. But why single out Harvin?

The real question is, can he develop? The answer: YES.

I’ve heard Meyer say a few times that he graded out 100%
on his assignments (100%!). That’s pretty impressive. He calls
him “a relentless competitor,” as opposed to a Chad Jackson.

He also says that Harvin has the quickest first step of anybody
that he’s ever seen. And that he’s been working on technique
with him from day one, because you can’t just run go-routes.
He also added 10lbs of muscle so he won’t be bumped at the line.

Who said Harvin couldn't run routes? I seriously wonder if you are making things up.

Myth #7 - You can find a Marques Colston late, instead.

Myth Busted – Why, because there is a Colston in every draft? Yet the Pats missed him and every other Colston over the past 5 years?
That’s absurd. Colston and Boldin are exceptions, not the norm.
You don’t pass on top end talent to hunt a diamond in the rough.
With that said, there are a number of late round WR’s that I like.

Again, its my opinion that you are making ***** up. Boldin was a 2nd round pick. Colston was a 7th, but that was because he came from a small school. They have nothing in common with Harvin other than they are WRs.

Myth #8 - BB doesn't "gamble" on 1st round picks.

Myth Busted – The draft is a crapshoot. Every pick is a gamble!
Maroney, Watson, Mankins, Mayo…all these guys were risks.
Hell, even Wilfork fell for a reason, and Seymour had his doubters.

You call this busting a myth? WOW. You are ridiculous. Wilfork fell for a reason? What was it other than people chose to pick other players because they felt their needs were different?

Seymour had his doubters? Yeah. Jackoffs like Borges and Tomase.

Myth # 9 – Percy Harvin = Reggie Bush.

Myth Busted – Harvin was recruited heavily by USC to be “the next
Reggie Bush.” That was their selling point. He turned them down cold.
And with good reason: He’s not Bush. He’s better.

Just to illustrate that point, as others have, Harvin averaged 4yds more
per touch than Bush did. But he did on fewer carries, and versus tougher
opponents. Moreover, Harvin can run it up the gut or burn you deep.

While Bush has been preoccupied more with scoring with Kim Kardashian
than the NFL, Harvin willingly took a backseat to Tim Tebow’s fame. All
he cares about is winning games and Championships. And it shows.

How do you know that Harvin is better than Reggie Bush? Also, you are full of garbage. Harvin only averaged 2 yards more per carry than Bush, not 4 per your claim. Also, how can you say they were "tougher" opponents? If there is one thing that is proven in college, its damn near impossible to compare years the way you are trying.

Myth # 10 - They already have Moss and Welker.

Myth Busted - Even with Moss and Welker, they shelled out big bucks for Stallworth.
Granted, Stallworth didn’t produce. But I think it shows the importance
of having that 3rd guy at WR that can make teams pay in coverage.

Harvin is just electric. It’s very rare to see players have such impact.
If he can rip off a few big gainers at Tailback at key moments, or maybe
single-handedly win a game or two on Special Teams, all the better.

You have your facts wrong. Again. The Pats shelled out the money for Stallworth before they acquired Moss. And it does make a difference. It doesn't show the importance of having that 3rd guy because Gaffney came in and did the same thing.

Did you stop to think that mybe part of Harvin's injury issues is that he's playing on Special Teams as well as RB? No? Didn't think so.

See, also:

SN: Gators make sure Harvin gets his fill - College football- nbcsports.msnbc.com

You haven't debunked any myths about Harvin. Now, I am not saying he isn't good, but when you look at the draft in terms of Best Value Available, Harvin, IMHO, doesn't rate high enough to be taken with the 23rd pick by the Patriots. And I'd expect him to be gone by the Pats pick from SD in the 2nd round.

mesoslo · 02-11-2009, 12:54 PM

Harvin's athletic ability is just to hard to pass up, not to mention his versatility. I thought Brady and deon branch was a good pair, Iam thinking Harvin and and Brady will be a good pair.

Quote:

If it comes down to two prospects that are rated equally, but one has a flag, I'd been willing to bet they take the one without the flag.

there are more than one percy harvin in this draft?

***patchick*** · 02-11-2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mesoslo

Harvin's athletic ability is just to hard to pass up, not to mention his versatility. I thought Brady and deon branch was a good pair, Iam thinking Harvin and and Brady will be a good pair.

I think so too. That's why I'd be prepared to draft Harvin every bit as high as Branch was drafted.

condon84 · 02-11-2009, 03:53 PM

I love Harvin and I think he brings more to the Patriots than any other prospect out there, defense or offense. He'd be perfect for our offense with the bubble screens we run, short intermediate passes and he can even come out of the backfield. He can also add a lot to our return game and alleviate Hobbs' and Welker's duties. Not to mention that the fact that every time he touches the ball, he can take it to the house. So yeah, I am a big Harvin fan. If we draft him, then I'll be ecstatic. If not, I'll trust Bill regardless.

But good luck in trying to convince some people in here about Harvin.