manxman2601

There's a group of players on the Patriots pre-draft contact list that intrigue me:

Christian Ballard
Adrian Clayborn
Da'Quan Bowers
Allen Bailey
Pernell McPhee

Two things strike me about them.

1. They are the wrong size for our base defense, too small for base DE, too big for OLB.

2. With the exception of McPhee and maybe Bowers, they are all projected to be picked in the low first, high second round area.

So why are the Pats looking at theses types of players so intently? Is it just due diligence in getting a look at the whole board in a key area of Patriots picks (28 and 33) or are they looking at them for sub package reasons? I know that accounted for 50%+ of defensive plays, but doesn't really jibe with what we think of as BB's draft philosophy, ie that top round picks need to be 3/4 down players.

FWIW, Mcphee was one of my earliest binkys and Allen Bailey is quickly becoming one of the players I most want the Patriots to draft. So I'm hoping that you'll all find the Patriots interest in these oversized elephants a worthwhile area of discussion.

Box_O_Rocks

1. a: Ballard does not appear to be a player capable of 3-4 DE, but when played on the edge he has more time to find the ball, and from there his natural athleticism takes over and he makes plays. In trash he sucks.

b: Clayborn turned in better change of direction numbers then Mayo. We already know he can rush the passer.

c: Bowers looks like a kid who can play 3-4 DE, and he's already demonstrated on my TV he can play OLB okay.

d: I had no idea where Bailey would fit, but there's a strong sense of Cunningham Deja Vu developing since I never saw Cunningham coming even after BB scouted him personally.

f: McPhee is looking more like a kid whom you'd bulk up and play at DE.

2. a: I rate Ballard a late second, and for NE, fourth round or later.

b: Clayborn will most likely go to a 4-3 team in the first round.

c: I'd love to see Bowers at #17 to get some idea what NE thinks of him.

d: Bailey was looking early third, but perhaps BB wants him earlier.

e: McPhee could easily slide into day three.

NE is looking for big men who can rush the passer, stop the run, and play some underneath zone coverage. They want good character and terrific work ethic. I'd say all the above have most of that. FWIW, I believe Ballard and McPhee are lower on NE's board, Bailey has risen, and Clayborn will probably go too high for them. Bowers was more due diligence in case he does slide. If I had to hazard a guess, Bailey is the primary target from the mid-second on.

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manxman2601

Thank you again for an informative reply. I largely agree with your slotting, although Clayborn could be had lower depending on whether teams like TB and Atlanta rate Justin Houston higher.

What you didn't really address is whether BB is looking seriously at these types of Players for the Pats which strikes me as a change of emphasis. Cunningham isn't a great comp. because he fits the more traditional OLB weight wise in the 260lb range, but all these guys are in the 280lb range. Do you see them as only sub DE's or as base OLB's also?

As an aside, I found a useful youtube channel, caneinsider, which shows all the respective offensive and defensive highlights for Miami games last year. I think these are relevant to ourselves because Bailey, Hankerson and Brandon Harris are all 3 that I could see interesting the Pats in the second round.

If you get a chance, watch the defensive highlights package for Miami against UNC. Bailey looked dominant.

VJCPatriot

I do think that Bailey's measurables and athleticism make him attractive to New England in the 2nd-3rd round area. He would either play elephant or edge rush DE in subpackages. He's a bit undersized to play 3-4 DE though. Mcphee would be like a poor man's Bailey. He's a good edge setter and run stuffer but I don't think he has the pass rush ability that Bailey does. I targetted Bailey as one of three player's I'd like to see the Pats draft to build the 'Unfair Defense'.

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A_Ghost_In_The_Machine

I think (though I may be wrong) that the large amount of snaps on defense that were in sub-packages last year may have been to do with a lack of the right personnel rather than BB changing his system. That said I wouldn't want to see us take a player in the 1st or 2nd (where most of these guys are predicted to go) who is just going to play in sub-packages

manxman2601

Just read that post. Largely agree although I'm in the Cam Jordan rather than JJ Watt camp although in the context of an Elephant backer, Watt's agility advantage makes him the better choice.

Box_O_Rocks

Weight can be gained or lost depending on the S&C coach's goals. Bailey and Clayborn both have baby fat they can trim.

Bailey played LB in high school and was reportedly very highly recruited for LB. Cunningham also played linebacker in high school before converting to DE.

I consider Cunningham and Bailey very comparable:
-- Cunningham played below the radar on a National Champion team where everybody was drooling over the guy on the other side of the formation.
-- Bailey has been a Miami jack-of-all-trades on forgettable teams, he's their hero, but not very high profile because they abused him so much and never let him get better at one position.
-- Their 10 splits, vertical and broad jumps are all in the same neighborhood. The QB is within ten yds, and they are both very explosive in their jumps and quick over ten yards for their size.
-- They both know how to hand fight in the trenches.
-- They both need/ed coaching up on technique.
-- BB reportedly saw Cunningham in practice and was able to see how he worked when there was no crowd to see. Bailey reportedly is one of the hardest workers in practice.

Clayborn was a linebacker in high school.

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borg

Randy Shannon was an aweful coach and he was fired not only for poor W/L records, but because his players rarely showed progress in developement. Talk Radio in S Fla did say that many of those drafted into the NFL showed nice progress once they left Shannon. Food for thought. Talented but Raw?????

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crowell33

Mike Wright replacement as the nickel DL pass rusher.

HomerSchooled

I too am starting to get intrigued by the idea of Bailey as a Jumbo OLB. He has rare athleticism for his size, and as an OLB, he could be dominant against the run while still providing a significant pass rush. Character sounds promising, and he played all over the place in Miami with success (including rushing from a two point stance). His ability to cover is really my only question, but I've zero doubt he has something to offer on all downs.

Interestingly, at his pro day, he weighed in at 275, 10 pounds lower than his weight at the combine. Despite the possibility that the drop could help him improve on his outstanding combine performances, he stood on all his numbers. So why lose the weight, especially when he was already notorious for sporting one of the most imposing physiques in the draft? Maybe, just maybe, he's trying to fit the OLB mold a little better?