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Will we likely have the divisions #4 QB in 2020?

2021 Patriots Season:
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Next Up: at Chargers
Pick Results: NE: 65.2% at LAC: 34.8%

Sun
Oct 31st

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captain stone

Hall of Fame Poster
So no matter what they do they will have the worst starting QB in the nfl? That’s what the point was? Jesus take a break, find a hobby.
By the way since many teams will have new QBs next year, it’s amazing that you have already concluded we are certain to get the worst one. Great job by you.
He's not wrong.
 

luuked

Hall of Fame Poster
Allen will have to show this kind of consistency for at least another year before anyone should fully believe that he can really play at that level.

There are more question marks about Tua now than there were before the season.

The Jets had entertained moving on from Darnold and might draft a QB at #2.


It is premature to say anything at all about the 2021 season.
 

Triumph

Hall of Fame Poster
We will likely draft a QB or more likely in the 2nd. Will this QB be better than Tua in 2020? Will he even be better than Fitzy who he would need to be ahead of to be the #4 instead of the #5.

Will we bring in a veteran who is better than Tua or Fields? We might; but it would cost.

BUF
will have a better QB

MIA
will have Tua plus a veteran

NYJ
will lively have Fields or Wilson
Exactly what Ive been preaching.
 

Ring 6

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Yes, the point is that the NE QB position is a trainwreck.

Hoyer doesnt know what day it is and Stidham cant crack the starting lineup with Cant Newton playing like as$.
So that’s a reason to start a discussion about how good the QBs that will be here next year are going to be when we don’t know who they are?
 

mgteich

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Of course he is. He is guaranteeing that the patriots will have the worst qb in the nfl. That’s ridiculous.
I understand that reading comprhension is a difficult thing for you; that isn't new.

It my strong opinion that with most of the plans suggested that we will have the worst QB in the division not only this year bur for a couple of more, if we are not very, very lucky. Some think that we can make up for not having a QB by drafting front seven folks for the next few years and buy receivers on the open market. Maybe we will be competitive in 2-3 years, or not.
================
I DO NOT accept such views, and I don't accept that Belichick does either.

1) In order for the 2021 and 2022 teams to even have a chance of being competitive, we need to trade or sign for QB to start or be the primary backup for at least a couple of years, even if we draft a potential top 10 qb (which we could succeed at with our 2021 draftee or our 2022 draftee).

2) I expect us to draft a QB with our first round, perhaps through a trade, perhaps through trading up, possibly even trading down a bit. Personally, I think a trade up for Wilson, Trask or Jones is likely.

3) This plan may require $20M a year plus our 1st round draft picks. That's fine. We have lot of cap money and lots of other picks.

3) ALL ELSE INVOLVES SECONDARY CONSIDERATIONS
Sure, we absolutely need to acquire or re-sign: 2-3 DT's, a LB, 2 WR's and a TE.
 

Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
I understand that reading comprhension is a difficult thing for you; that isn't new.

It my strong opinion that with most of the plans suggested that we will have the worst QB in the division not only this year bur for a couple of more, if we are not very, very lucky. Some think that we can make up for not having a QB by drafting front seven folks for the next few years and buy receivers on the open market. Maybe we will be competitive in 2-3 years, or not.
================
I DO NOT accept such views, and I don't accept that Belichick does either.

1) In order for the 2021 and 2022 teams to even have a chance of being competitive, we need to trade or sign for QB to start or be the primary backup for at least a couple of years, even if we draft a potential top 10 qb (which we could succeed at with our 2021 draftee or our 2022 draftee).

2) I expect us to draft a QB with our first round, perhaps through a trade, perhaps through trading up, possibly even trading down a bit. Personally, I think a trade up for Wilson, Trask or Jones is likely.

3) This plan may require $20M a year plus our 1st round draft picks. That's fine. We have lot of cap money and lots of other picks.

3) ALL ELSE INVOLVES SECONDARY CONSIDERATIONS
Sure, we absolutely need to acquire or re-sign: 2-3 DT's, a LB, 2 WR's and a TE.
We don't need to get into the reading comprehension comment (let's not do that), but I 100% agree with you on your premise in terms of it absolutely being a discussion worth having, especially given the ascension of Josh Allen and potentially Tua in Miami. It's a bizarre state of affairs and I definitely agree with you in terms of this season being hard to argue in that I think Newton barely edged out Darnold. That's an odd situation to be in.

Heading into next season, my gut initially believed Garoppolo would be the quarterback in 2021 but someone on WEEI mentioned the possibility of San Francisco being in play. He suggested the Texans sending Watson there while giving Houston Garoppolo for the sake of getting Watson out of the conference vs making a deal with Miami. That obviously makes sense, which sets up a potential landing spot I hadn't thought of.

Outside of Jimmy G - I don't really feel like the Patriots will have enough trust to pay anyone else a large sum. They just don't do it, which essentially takes them out of the market for top-tier quarterbacks. I don't really have a sense yet as to who they might target in the early or lower rounds of the draft because I haven't delved into that yet, but given that they don't really have anyone other than Stidham and Hoyer heading into next year, barring an improvement with the Jets, the Patriots could very well be battling it out in terms of QB talent at the bottom of the division.

As for their record? Belichick is obviously the wild card. But when it comes to the QB, there's reason to be a little concerned because there aren't any guarantees. To make matters worse, this is such a key season for New England because they really need to do something to make some sort of forward progress. This season was irritating because they walked away from this year with really nothing to show for it. As I mentioned before, at least at the end of 2008 we walked away from it having seen Matt Cassel grow and develop, which they were able to turn into a decent draft pick, not to mention that watching his development over the course of the season was a nice subplot and made the year enjoyable to follow. And they ended up building an asset that they were able to cash in.

This year? They took a chance on Newton which clearly did something - according to all the reports we heard - to seemingly affect whatever confidence Stidham had heading into training camp. I never would have guessed after what he showed in rough times in Carolina that Newton would have been the more mentally tough player yet Stidham didn't seem to rise to the challenge, which is incredibly disappointing. I was excited for a season of watching a young guy develop and seeing where that went. The more I've had time to think about it, the fact Belichick (who historically roots for the underdog if he can get equal/better play for similar money) completely gave up on him speaks volumes.

As a result, they head into this offseason with essentially Hoyer (if Belichick is really done with Stidham) and that's it. Stidham might fetch a conditional 7th if they're lucky because he was just good enough to make many of us wish he was out there thanks to a few good plays.

So yes, while we have no one "yet", it's hard not to agree with @mgteich that New England could very well finish with the 4th best QB in the division next season. And - while, again, it's a strange situation to be in - none of us can believe otherwise until they do something about it.
 

Ring 6

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I understand that reading comprhension is a difficult thing for you; that isn't new.
[/QUOTE]
Please explain how my reading comprehension is faulty when these are your words
I just wanted to reiterate that even if we were to draft a QB in the top 15 AND bring in a midlevel free agent, we would still have the worst starting QB in the league.
You REITERATED that EVEN IF we bring in a mid level free agent AND a QBs drafted in the top 15 we would ha d THE WORST STARTING QB IN THE LEAGUE.

You said it not me. Any top 15 pick or mod level free agents will be THE WORST WN IN THE LEAGUE.

It my strong opinion that with most of the plans suggested that we will have the worst QB in the division not only this year bur for a couple of more, if we are not very, very lucky. Some think that we can make up for not having a QB by drafting front seven folks for the next few years and buy receivers on the open market. Maybe we will be competitive in 2-3 years, or not.

what “plans suggested”?

================
I DO NOT accept such views, and I don't accept that Belichick does either.

1) In order for the 2021 and 2022 teams to even have a chance of being competitive, we need to trade or sign for QB to start or be the primary backup for at least a couple of years, even if we draft a potential top 10 qb (which we could succeed at with our 2021 draftee or our 2022 draftee).

2) I expect us to draft a QB with our first round, perhaps through a trade, perhaps through trading up, possibly even trading down a bit. Personally, I think a trade up for Wilson, Trask or Jones is likely.

3) This plan may require $20M a year plus our 1st round draft picks. That's fine. We have lot of cap money and lots of other picks.

3) ALL ELSE INVOLVES SECONDARY CONSIDERATIONS
Sure, we absolutely need to acquire or re-sign: 2-3 DT's, a LB, 2 WR's and a TE.
What does any of this have to do with your statement that any QBs we draft of sign will be the worst in the league?
 

Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
Please explain how my reading comprehension is faulty when these are your words

You REITERATED that EVEN IF we bring in a mid level free agent AND a QBs drafted in the top 15 we would ha d THE WORST STARTING QB IN THE LEAGUE.

You said it not me. Any top 15 pick or mod level free agents will be THE WORST WN IN THE LEAGUE.



what “plans suggested”?


What does any of this have to do with your statement that any QBs we draft of sign will be the worst in the league?
I think you're getting a little too fired up over this, but it's not exactly something many people aren't wondering about. It's been an odd turn of events this season and it's not even over yet. But Allen and Tua have obviously moved their respective teams ahead of New England. If the Jets end up doing the same, it will be a little frustrating.

The hardest part is the fact we do head into next year with a big question mark here and as @mgteich mentioned, it's a risk because for every year the guy you sign ends up proving you wrong, it's a lost season. When you draft a player, it's sort of even worse because it's hard to just give up on him, so you keep him on the roster vs someone like Newton, who you can cut at the end of the year.

I started thinking about this and it's such a gamble and a risk because it potentially undoes everything you did on both sides of the football. You can have a defense that is 6th best in the NFL at points allowed and be losing games because your QB can't put the ball in the end zone. That's beyond frustrating.

That's going to make this whole process hard to take because there's so little margin for error. Will the Patriots get it right in a year or two? Or will we walk away from 4-5 years worth of football before they potentially find the next "one"? And will that guy be another Tony Romo or Jeff Garcia vs a Patrick Mahomes or obviously a Brady? The first two will see you go 7-9 or 10-6 and maybe occasionally get you to the playoffs, the latter two can win the big one.

We've seen teams churn through players and it's easy to sit here and believe they'll figure it out. The scary part is just the simple fact it's harder than it looks, and we truly don't know how long it will take them to figure it out.
 

mgteich

PatsFans.com Veteran
PatsFans.com Supporter
We don't need to get into the reading comprehension comment (let's not do that), .
fair enough.

I hereby apologize to Ring 6

The problem was that I was very sure that the poster well understood what I meant. We have read each other's posts for many years.

But, I was wrong. Again, I apologize.
 

mgteich

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.

As for their record? Belichick is obviously the wild card. But when it comes to the QB, there's reason to be a little concerned because there aren't any guarantees. To make matters worse, this is such a key season for New England because they really need to do something to make some sort of forward progress. This season was irritating because they walked away from this year with really nothing to show for it. ..
This
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Belichick may very well refuse to move up more than a pick or two in the first. He may well refuse to pay for a top level free agent. That is exactly why I am so irritated. I was OK with Newton and Stidham. I was HORRIFIED that we didn't sign or trade for help in the front seven (especially NT) and at receiver. I don't know was the best choice to sign or trade for. Belichick often chooses someone I know very little about. That's OK. I trust Bill.

HOWEVER, this time, Belichick could have signed several played with cap money available, even without restructuring Gilmore's contract and taking money from 2021. He basically said to wait for 2021. So now I hear that many, many (perhaps even including us) see at as possible just won't get us a top QB if he finds the cost too expensive.

How expensive would it be NOT to get a QB and to thus give up on another year as BUF and MIA continue to improve their teams?
 
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Ring 6

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I think you're getting a little too fired up over this, but it's not exactly something many people aren't wondering about. It's been an odd turn of events this season and it's not even over yet. But Allen and Tua have obviously moved their respective teams ahead of New England. If the Jets end up doing the same, it will be a little frustrating.

The hardest part is the fact we do head into next year with a big question mark here and as @mgteich mentioned, it's a risk because for every year the guy you sign ends up proving you wrong, it's a lost season. When you draft a player, it's sort of even worse because it's hard to just give up on him, so you keep him on the roster vs someone like Newton, who you can cut at the end of the year.

I started thinking about this and it's such a gamble and a risk because it potentially undoes everything you did on both sides of the football. You can have a defense that is 6th best in the NFL at points allowed and be losing games because your QB can't put the ball in the end zone. That's beyond frustrating.

That's going to make this whole process hard to take because there's so little margin for error. Will the Patriots get it right in a year or two? Or will we walk away from 4-5 years worth of football before they potentially find the next "one"? And will that guy be another Tony Romo or Jeff Garcia vs a Patrick Mahomes or obviously a Brady? The first two will see you go 7-9 or 10-6 and maybe occasionally get you to the playoffs, the latter two can win the big one.

We've seen teams churn through players and it's easy to sit here and believe they'll figure it out. The scary part is just the simple fact it's harder than it looks, and we truly don't know how long it will take them to figure it out.
We have to address the QB position.
Im sorry if you disagree but to conclude today that the unknown moves that are about to happen will result in the worst QB in the nfl is an ignorant statement.
 

Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
We have to address the QB position.
Im sorry if you disagree but to conclude today that the unknown moves that are about to happen will result in the worst QB in the nfl is an ignorant statement.
It's not ignorant when you're talking about hypotheticals. There's a big concern in terms of that position and the discussion wasn't about them having the worst QB in the NFL, it was about potentially the possibility of having the worst QB in the division. We can have a light-hearted "what if" type of discussion without going to war over absolutes. I think that was the point I was trying to make, and I think there are definitely some reasons to be concerned both where they could end up talent-wise both in terms of in comparison to their peers and the long-term implications if they strike out and 2-3 years becomes 4-5 years (or longer). That's definitely a little concerning and uncharted territory after having it so good for 20-years.
 

Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
This
=========
Belichick may very well refuse to move up more than a pick or two in the first. He may well refuse to pay for a top level free agent. That is exactly why I am so irritated. I was OK with Newton and Stidham. I was HORRIFIED that we didn't sign or trade for help in the front seven (especially NT) and at receiver. I don't know was the best choice to sign or trade for. Belichick often chooses someone I know very little about. That's OK. I trust Bill.

HOWEVER, this time, Belichick could have signed several played with cap money available, even without restructuring Gilmore's contract and taking money from 2021. He basically said to wait for 2021. So now I hear that many, many (perhaps even including us) see at as possible just won't get us a top QB if he finds the cost too expensive.

How expensive would it be NOT to get a QB and to thus give up on another year as BUF and MIA continue to improve their teams?
I think I'm more interested to see where that money is allocated. It's funny, Brady was part of the group that essentially was part of what set the market and he took much lower deals. I was sort of thinking the same thing with Edelman because with him at his peak, they could say, "we can't pay you more than Jules". Once he's gone, they don't have one of their own they can leverage. That was an interesting dynamic.

But I don't know how they're going to handle the QB position and I can't see them paying anyone a ton of money given that it goes completely against how they do business. However, they need to at least get someone more capable, even if it's a mid-tier guy to make them more competitive and allows them to able to run their offense while also bringing in a young player they can truly develop. You're absolutely right, every year they lose is another one where they sort of have to start over. The hard part is, when you consider that the top half of QBs drafted each year still end up out of the league, it still may be a problem they're forced to deal with. Hopefully, that won't be the case but your earlier point is a reminder that if those other QBs within the division get better and more experienced, that job becomes more difficult and they fall farther behind.

Fortunately, they still have Belichick and a coaching staff to offset some of that. But Belichick isn't in his 50s or 60s. They don't exactly have the luxury of time anymore if this process drags out over several more seasons.
 

Ring 6

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It's not ignorant when you're talking about hypotheticals. There's a big concern in terms of that position and the discussion wasn't about them having the worst QB in the NFL, it was about potentially the possibility of having the worst QB in the division. We can have a light-hearted "what if" type of discussion without going to war over absolutes. I think that was the point I was trying to make, and I think there are definitely some reasons to be concerned both where they could end up talent-wise both in terms of in comparison to their peers and the long-term implications if they strike out and 2-3 years becomes 4-5 years (or longer). That's definitely a little concerning and uncharted territory after having it so good for 20-years.
I was responding to a direct comment that they will have the worst QBs in the league.
I literally quoted the comment. So yes that is exactly what I was discussing. I quoted it twice.
 

Ring 6

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I think I'm more interested to see where that money is allocated. It's funny, Brady was part of the group that essentially was part of what set the market and he took much lower deals. I was sort of thinking the same thing with Edelman because with him at his peak, they could say, "we can't pay you more than Jules". Once he's gone, they don't have one of their own they can leverage. That was an interesting dynamic.

But I don't know how they're going to handle the QB position and I can't see them paying anyone a ton of money given that it goes completely against how they do business. However, they need to at least get someone more capable, even if it's a mid-tier guy to make them more competitive and allows them to able to run their offense while also bringing in a young player they can truly develop. You're absolutely right, every year they lose is another one where they sort of have to start over. The hard part is, when you consider that the top half of QBs drafted each year still end up out of the league, it still may be a problem they're forced to deal with. Hopefully, that won't be the case but your earlier point is a reminder that if those other QBs within the division get better and more experienced, that job becomes more difficult and they fall farther behind.

Fortunately, they still have Belichick and a coaching staff to offset some of that. But Belichick isn't in his 50s or 60s. They don't exactly have the luxury of time anymore if this process drags out over several more seasons.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that Bill Belichick doesn’t understand the value of the QB position and will move forward ignoring it.
That’s the problem with these hypotheticals. I see no point in being concerned about what happens if belichick suddenly forgets everything he knows about football.
The bar of comparable to the division outside of Allen is about as low as it could be.
 

Ian

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I was responding to a direct comment that they will have the worst QBs in the league.
I literally quoted the comment. So yes that is exactly what I was discussing. I quoted it twice.
I know you did - but again, we're just talking in hypotheticals, there's no need to be rigid and create an argumentative in a thread intended for just some discussion. I saw what he posted and I understood the overall point he was trying to make. I think it's safe to say that they maybe won't end up with the worst, but probably in the bottom tier. Again, like you, I agree it's an unknown but the chances of them falling into that category are better than ending up among the top (we got lucky once...I don't know if that will happen again ;)).

We can hope that's the case, but it's understandable that people would have some concern that they won't.
 

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