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What are you expecting from Mac Jones this season?

2022 Patriots Season:
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Sep 25th
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Rob0729

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Brady always had great arm strength. Was originally drafted as a catcher. A position in baseball along with RF where great arm strength is essential.

Even Brady admitted that the book on him was he didn’t have a great arm coming out of college. It might not have been Jones’ arm strength, but it was below average for a QB.

If Brady had a really strong arm coming out of college, no way would he have lasted til the sixth round.
 

PScottman

In the Starting Line-Up
If Mac had failed the headlines would have been rookie chokes, Matt not good enough for Brady etc etc. Bill understood this and took it upon himself. Now rather than blame Mac for choking, or winning I guess, we get to criticize Bill for making the call. Pretty tough position to put a rookie qb in, early in his rookie season.
How much or how little does this impact a QB? A team? A coach? All very interesting questions with significant depth.

We are so enamored with the physical outcomes of being a QB, that we usually ignore or under-evaluate the mental ones when considering growth of a rookie. There are plenty of examples of QBs with all the physical gifts the world could offer, but they still weren't able to employ them either consistently or in the most crucial of moments.

Taking one of those moments in a rookie season, in possibly the birightest spotlight of that campaign versus the team's own former leader, and going to low risk route - can also be heavily debated with "if-then" statements. If he succeeded then...or if he failed then...

That's what I'm looking for out of this season, not number of TDs, or yards, but does he have the clutch aspect to do the right thing in pressure moments? Not EVERY time, but some of the time (more so than last year where there were very few of them - i.e the late TD strike to Bourne vs DAL)? Did having the ball taken from his hands in your Tampa game example light a fire...or was it just another moment?

In short, is Mac an elite...or just a borderline great QB (poor, average, good, great, elite)? He was a definitive good last year, sometimes great, but jury is still out as to "elite".
 

Rob0729

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Here are comments on Brady from five talent evaluators leading up to the 2000 NFL draft:

Scout:
Awful. Not even on my board. Weak. He’ll make somebody a good husband or a good medical salesman.

Scout II: Has a quick, (former Michigan QB Brian) Griese-type release.

Quarterback coach: Backup. Could be a #2 in this league for a long time. Has the size but not enough arm.

Offensive coordinator:
More instinctive than (Michigan State QB Bill) Burke. Makes better decisions, makes more plays.

General manager: Like him. Just wish he was a better athlete.
--Poor build
--Skinny
--Lacks great physical stature and strength
--Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush
--Lacks a really strong arm
--Can’t drive the ball downfield

--Does not throw a really tight spiral
--System-type player who can get exposed if forced to ad lib
--Gets knocked down easily

I don't get why the Brady cultists won't just admit the book Brady coming out of college was that he had a weak arm. Ironically, they are diminishing Brady in doing so. What makes Brady the greatest QB ever is that he wasn't the most naturally gifted QB and his amazing drive and work ethic made him transform himself from a QB that no one thought would make it in the NFL with a doughy body, a lack of mobility, and not a lot of great physical trait into the greatest QB who ever lived with such conditioning that he can play at an elite level in his mid 40s.
 

Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
Even Brady admitted that the book on him was he didn’t have a great arm coming out of college. It might not have been Jones’ arm strength, but it was below average for a QB.

If Brady had a really strong arm coming out of college, no way would he have lasted til the sixth round.
Brady didn't have a great arm coming out. The scouting reports said as much and watching him back then, he wasn't as big or as strong in 2000 as he was in 2001, which shows you what a full offseason in the NFL can do. When you've got unlimited resources and experts who can guide you both with nutrition and mechanics, it obviously makes a big difference. And he got stronger as the years progressed, which should be a reminder that people shouldn't make a judgment after just one year.

People continue to sort of underestimate that with Jones, and watching video of him with what little there was available during OTAs, there was already a noticeable difference. So placing a ceiling on him before he even hits the field for his second season seems a little silly.
 

Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
I don't get why the Brady cultists won't just admit the book Brady coming out of college was that he had a weak arm. Ironically, they are diminishing Brady in doing so. What makes Brady the greatest QB ever is that he wasn't the most naturally gifted QB and his amazing drive and work ethic made him transform himself from a QB that no one thought would make it in the NFL with a doughy body, a lack of mobility, and not a lot of great physical trait into the greatest QB who ever lived with such conditioning that he can play at an elite level in his mid 40s.
Exactly. He still didn't have the cannon other guys did but being a great QB is also about the mental aspect and the drive to study film so that he can recognize and anticipate, which are obviously his strengths. But he also worked on his mechanics and has continued to do that even all the way up until now. He can make all the throws he needs to make and more importantly, he typically makes them at the right time and in the right situations. That's why he's the GOAT :cool:
 

Rob0729

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Brady didn't have a great arm coming out. The scouting reports said as much and watching him back then, he wasn't as big or as strong in 2000 as he was in 2001, which shows you what a full offseason in the NFL can do. When you've got unlimited resources and experts who can guide you both with nutrition and mechanics, it obviously makes a big difference. And he got stronger as the years progressed, which should be a reminder that people shouldn't make a judgment after just one year.

People continue to sort of underestimate that with Jones, and watching video of him with what little there was available during OTAs, there was already a noticeable difference. So placing a ceiling on him before he even hits the field for his second season seems a little silly.

It was clear that Brady made a huge jump from his college days to when he actually got a change to start in his second year. But it wasn't an one year transformation. He was a much stronger athlete by 2004 than he was in 2001. These type of transformations don't happen in one year.
 

Ian

Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR
It was clear that Brady made a huge jump from his college days to when he actually got a change to start in his second year. But it wasn't an one year transformation. He was a much stronger athlete by 2004 than he was in 2001. These type of transformations don't happen in one year.
Exactly. That's why it's tough to assume Jones was what he was last year. He's going to get stronger and let's be honest, not every QB can make every throw. It's more about being able to make the throws he needs to when it counts and not making a bad decision. Honestly, that's sort of the difference between the better players vs the guys who can't make it. We've seen plenty of guys with the physical tools that had higher expectations who ended up being players who couldn't stop from turning it over. Fortunately, Jones has looked so far like he at least won't fall into that category.
 

dreighver

In the Starting Line-Up
I also think Jones is a bit of a late bloomer (in general and compared to Brady).

Jones looks like he’s still developing and rounding out physically and emotionally, as one does as they transition from adolescence to young adulthood and puberty/hormones change and evolve.

Considering how sharp he’s looked so far, with a bit more physical, mental, and emotional development, he’s going to be a pretty impressive (and improving) QB for some time to come, in my opinion.
 

40yrpatsfan

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It was clear that Brady made a huge jump from his college days to when he actually got a change to start in his second year. But it wasn't an one year transformation. He was a much stronger athlete by 2004 than he was in 2001. These type of transformations don't happen in one year.
By the time he was starting for us in year 2 of his career, he had plenty of arm. His SB pass to Patton on the out & up in the corner was a bullet, and exactly the type of throw a QB with a weak arm can't make. None of us remember what he could do prior to that cause he was hardly seen. If he had a weak arm coming out of Michigan, then he transformed in 1 1/2 years.
 

MAC10

Hall of Fame Poster
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Brady didn't have a great arm coming out. The scouting reports said as much and watching him back then, he wasn't as big or as strong in 2000 as he was in 2001, which shows you what a full offseason in the NFL can do. When you've got unlimited resources and experts who can guide you both with nutrition and mechanics, it obviously makes a big difference. And he got stronger as the years progressed, which should be a reminder that people shouldn't make a judgment after just one year.

People continue to sort of underestimate that with Jones, and watching video of him with what little there was available during OTAs, there was already a noticeable difference. So placing a ceiling on him before he even hits the field for his second season seems a little silly.

part of brady’s job in 2000 was to throw was to throw “interceptions” to the DBs. lawyer milloy noticed big difference in brady’s arm heading into the 2001 season.
 

sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
Even Brady admitted that the book on him was he didn’t have a great arm coming out of college. It might not have been Jones’ arm strength, but it was below average for a QB.

If Brady had a really strong arm coming out of college, no way would he have lasted til the sixth round.
He had accuracy issues throwing downfield. I think the problem with that was more his mechanics than his arm. Which obviously was corrected. I think his arm was a lot better than he was given credit to have otherwise an MLB team wouldn't have picked him at a position which needs arm strength.

There were lots of reasons why Brady was available in the 6th round. Among them is I don't think a lot of teams were looking for QBs in 2000, if they were he would have gone a lot sooner. 1999 was as much of a QB draft as 2021 was. Five of them went in the top 12.

I think his physique at the time raised a lot of questions, as it did with Mac. I know what Mac was trying to do but I don't think releasing that photo was a good idea. I also think the Drew Henson situation didn't help Brady either. If you didn't know better it looked like his team felt Brady wasn't good enough to start and hold his team. We learned since that was not the case but I'm sure that was the perception.
 

Ochmed Jones

Pro Bowl Player
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
The biggest thing is can jones get comfortable throwing into small windows downfield instead of dumping it off to backs and Myers?
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
Totally agree Mac had to improve upon an already impressive rookie start. He needed to get his body in shape, prepare like a professional and strengthen that doughy body, but then I said that about him before the draft... we all knew that because we all saw the picture.

His arm was fine last season, his endurance was crap. Go watch some Mac Jones highlights, there's no throw he can't make.

Winning is a team stat, it takes a team, especially in the playoffs it requires the best teams.

Mac has to be as "franchise caliber" and have as strong an arm as Nick Foles, Joe Flacco and Eli Manning... sound like a high bar?
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
It was clear that Brady made a huge jump from his college days to when he actually got a change to start in his second year. But it wasn't an one year transformation. He was a much stronger athlete by 2004 than he was in 2001. These type of transformations don't happen in one year.
Brady entered the league at 6'4" and weighing 211 pounds.

3JV6ywF.jpg


After a year in the strength and conditioning program with coach Mike Woicik, Tom entered 2001 weighing over 220 in lean muscle mass.

Brady's scouting report from before the 2000 draft = Pea Shooter

--Skinny
--Lacks great physical stature and strength
--Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush
--Lacks a really strong arm
--Can’t drive the ball downfield

--Does not throw a really tight spiral
--System-type player who can get exposed if forced to ad lib
--Gets knocked down easily


www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/tom-bradys-pre-nfl-draft-scouting-report-will-never-cease-be-funny

Mac at one inch shorter weighed 6 pounds heavier than Tom at the combine. They both had the body definition of a white wet rolled cloth napkin and neither bench pressed it for obvious reasons. The revisionist fanboy dream where he arrived a finished product is just that, a dream.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

High Priest at Team Bill's Temple
PatsFans.com Supporter
By the time he was starting for us in year 2 of his career, he had plenty of arm. His SB pass to Patton on the out & up in the corner was a bullet, and exactly the type of throw a QB with a weak arm can't make. None of us remember what he could do prior to that cause he was hardly seen. If he had a weak arm coming out of Michigan, then he transformed in 1 1/2 years.

Yeah, no one truly knows. Could have been that scouts were wrong; could have been that he improved. Probably somewhere in between. But the fact is, scouting reports are often wrong in a big way. How many scouts said Gronkowski has all-pro talent, let alone Hall of Fame? We’re talking about the most physically gifted dual TE the game has ever seen, and I remember a collective groan as the team passed on Sergio Kindle.

Richard Sherman, fifth round; Antonio Brown, sixth round. You could write a very long list of players, and I'm only including a couple that come to mind because when you watch them play (in their primes), you wonder how scouts can overlook their upside.

Meanwhile, there wasn't just one scouting report on Brady, even though that's often cited. I'm sure you can always find scouts who were really high on one guy, but just some that come to mind:

  • Dick Rebhein (well documented)
  • Whitey Walsh (Giants scout...article in NY Post about how he wanted Brady)
  • Matt Cavanaugh (Ravens...badly wanted Brady)
  • Jesse Kaye (Jets...also pushed for Brady)
  • Mike Riley (Chargers...pushed GM to draft Brady but was overruled)
  • Bill Polian (yeah, I'm joking here, but it's not a stretch to think others thought higher of Brady than one infamous scouting report)

I think these are the real points:
  • His arm strength certainly didn't wow anyone, even though his actual arm strength and ability to drive the ball downfield seems perfectly fine when watching his college games. Clearly it improved with training and especially with mechanics, but I think that oft-cited report is pretty ridiculous. Also of note: Chad Pennington was the first QB drafted, and his lack of arm strength is well documented.
  • He came out of Michigan at a time when they had Drew Henson, the physical marvel, and Brian Griese had recently been drafted as well. The idea that Michigan's system/talent led to success would be a reasonable line of thinking.
  • The NFL was still in the dual-threat QB craze. Check out the 1999 draft from the year before. Not to say teams didn't want an immobile pocket passer, but they favored the mobile types, especially if the passing skills were comparable.
 

moosekill

In the Starting Line-Up
  • The NFL was still in the dual-threat QB craze. Check out the 1999 draft from the year before. Not to say teams didn't want an immobile pocket passer, but they favored the mobile types, especially if the passing skills were comparable.
The nfl is in the dual threat qb craze again. It is why Mac ended up at 15 and Trey Lance went 3rd.
2019North Dakota StateMVCSOQB1619228766.927869.711.7280180.6

2020North Dakota StateMVCJRQB1153050.01495.04.821107.1

*2020AlabamaSECJRQB1331140277.4450011.212.8414203.1
 

sb1

Hall of Fame Poster
If Mac didn't release that photo I wonder if he would have been allowed to fall to us at 15. Glad he did it :)
 

LFGMac10

In the Starting Line-Up
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Brady entered the league at 6'4" and weighing 211 pounds.

3JV6ywF.jpg


After a year in the strength and conditioning program with coach Mike Woicik, Tom entered 2001 weighing over 220 in lean muscle mass.

Brady's scouting report from before the 2000 draft = Pea Shooter

--Skinny
--Lacks great physical stature and strength
--Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush
--Lacks a really strong arm
--Can’t drive the ball downfield

--Does not throw a really tight spiral
--System-type player who can get exposed if forced to ad lib
--Gets knocked down easily


www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/tom-bradys-pre-nfl-draft-scouting-report-will-never-cease-be-funny

Mac at one inch shorter weighed 6 pounds heavier than Tom at the combine. They both had the body definition of a white wet rolled cloth napkin and neither bench pressed it for obvious reasons. The revisionist fanboy dream where he arrived a finished product is just that, a dream.
Mac is also quite a bit faster than Brady. I'd like to see Mac take a step forward in off platform throws too.
 


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