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Westworld Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'The PatsFans.com Pub' started by IcyPatriot, Sep 30, 2016.

  1. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Should have been clearer that's what i meant.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Ford is in all of their minds after seeing the brain blueprints next to the Michelangelo picture of the "Brain" .

    Still hanging on he might be really alive & she killed a host Ford. 90/10/10 Alive/Dead.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2018

  2. PatsFanInVa

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    Get TF back in here people heh

    Ford has done what the composers in his farewell speech did... in a way: Become his park - to the tune of El Lazo's men lending a new meaning to circular firing squad. (El Lazo means "the loop," if some Spanish-speaking fan I ran across wasn't pulling my leg).

    Since we see him biologically die, though, we have a record of Ford's consciousness reborn in the park, at best - or it's scripted with select Fordesque moves. I like to think there's a Ford consciousness pervading the park. There's no immortality to the Ford who lived and was executed by Dolores/Wyatt.

    However, my personal fan theory: The Park is something of an immortality come-on. This will begin with Old Man Delos, who's revealed to be on death's door. People have remarked on the resemblance between Abernathy and old Delos. I don't know whether it has to be Abernathy who gets his consciousness, but somebody has to.

    Here's the problem: Rich buttholes who aren't philosophically inclined are not going to worry about continuity (just like Starfleet officers and certain showrunners.) They figure if they're over here one minute and their consciousness is gone... and a record of their consciousness is inside a host the next minute... they haven't died. Of course, they have. All we've got now is a host that will swear up and down he or she is Rich Butthole III. He'll act like Rich Butthole, he'll have the kinks of Rich Butthole, the attachments, the memories (though apparently they'll work differently... maybe.) Nobody will be able to tell the host version from the original, no pun intended.

    The only way to transfer would be one pattern of neural connections at a time; there'd have to be a "procedure" during which consciousness is "migrated" to preserve continuity. Ship of Theseus for the mind.

    So my fan theory is that Westworld is not Facebook, although they pretended in S2E2 that it's exactly that - a way to really know how to sell more stuff to the rich customers. Small potatoes.

    They can ask for, say, 90% of the net worth of billionaires, who in turn will be saved from death. Thereafter, whatever comes out can have Delos' interests in mind. Possibly, the replicant could run around living his/her life without any continuity of the original human's consciousness at all, just a record of it.

    Objectively, there's no difference; the ultimate Turing Test. The resulting replicant will swear up and down that they're the human, migrated to a new body. To them, they are.

    Subjectively, all the difference in the world - the human would be dead, unless there's a transfer procedure beyond moving a record from point A to point B.

    Since a guy tried to thank MiB in S1 for "saving his sister's life," I think that's what MiB's foundation did - they "migrated" his sister. MiB didn't want to hear it both b/c he's on vacation, and because he knows that was no good deed.

    MiB also hasn't chosen to migrate to a host, despite Dolores' lecture about how his kind were doomed to die like the dinosaurs. He knows you don't really migrate.

    The second problem is that as hosts become conscious, they are no longer any good for moving humans to, unless you kill them first... which, if they're really conscious, is a little murder-y. You definitely want to roll the back before they really get there.

    As to Ford, Arnold, and Delos (the Corporation): Arnold was working on getting consciousness out of the hosts. Ford was interested in running stories for guests, not developing young robot souls. Yes, Ford kept rolling them back. Arnold knew you couldn't just "empty them out" to put Rich Butthole in them, given their potential. Ford was fine with the original mission of a park for rich buttholes, but I'm not sure how he originally felt about being cut out of that. He rolls back host consciousness, which is consistent both with running narratives and preserving hosts for migration. At the end (his end anyway), he sides with Arnold and nascent robot consciousness. As of now anyway.

    So tomorrow night, all this will be bullsh1t.

    One other thing: If you watch this show and you haven't read Julian Jaynes "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind," do. They name check it and explain it, for God's sake! Main point to know: great stress is necessary in Jaynes' model for consciousness to emerge. (Also good to have read when you see, in last season, Arnold's voice changing to Dolores' voice. The god side of the brain replaced by introspective consciousness. Outstanding copy-paste I mean dramatization). So for example, the stress of knowing Dolores is Wyatt and vice versa opens Teddy to his own moment of truth. And so on. I don't know if anything can make Teddy conscious, but if anything can that can.

    Okay get in here goddammit.
     
  3. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Logan will be back soon

    He's @ 141

    M1B S2E2
    "But we were watching them, tallying up all their sins… all the choices… judgement wasn't the point. We had something else in mind entirely."

    E2 really was a huge epi.

    Also Delos/Delores ??

    Ive been watching S1 the past few weeks & E1, the way Delores talks about spreading splender or something like that?? Idk

    Anyway is there something underneath the water, is where the M1B built whats hes looking for?
     
  4. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    surprised this thread isn't jumping. best show on tv in terms of what's actually on rn imho.

    Each epi really is great, the show expands while digging in on certain characters.

    Idk I have a feeling we're getting a reveal that none saw coming. Like some of theories will be confirmed but theres something bigger out there that were missing or just haven't caught yet.

    Theres def clues in front of us for sure.

    Idk i really think the names Abernathy & Delores are code for something?

    I agree w/ some of this.

    whatcya think of last nights?
     
  5. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Josh Gordon's locker is next to Brady's. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It’s between this and Legion for the two best shows on TV at the moment IMO. Better Call Saul as well. This thread is actually doing well for this forum.
     
  6. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Is that girl the M1B daughter? The tiger lady?
     
  7. PatsFanInVa

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    Sort of filler-y, sort of texture-y. All of them are great in reveals of how things work, or in terms of plot...

    In this one, a lot of "there are plot points that have to happen, you can't just get to 'The Valley Beyond'/'Glory'/whatever." So, some extra fights n stuff. Park crossovers confirmed, both The Raj (Big Bang Theory fans rejoice,) and SW, whether that's SamuraiWorld or ShogunWorld or whatevs.

    I LOVED the insight into how a self-aware host (Dolores) processes her previous life. She is FINE with still having emotional pulls toward her host father, even though she knows that their memories are written by others. I also love how his glitching mimics delirium in a human, and she calls for Bernard like you would for a doctor.

    A similar thing is happening with Hector/Maeve/Sizemore. Sizemore can tell Hector the end of the line he's about to say; but the fact remains that they've decided to love each other. For Maeve, at least, it's (likely) choice. Maeve's probably self-aware; we know that "someone" wrote her "Mainland Infiltration" code. On the other hand, below that code on the screen shot, there was an "else" sort of line (escape "Mainland Infiltration" code). So she might have just branched off onto another narrative, that "someone" gave to her.

    Dolores/Delos - I don't see connection (it's not "De" lores, it's "Dolores," or "Sorrows.") But who knows.

    Greek Mythology about the island of Delos: In one story, it's hidden from the sight of the goddess Juno. That meaning's plain. It's also got a bunch of other bits and pieces that could come in handy, including being the birthplace of Apollo (god of culture) and Artemis (goddess of the hunt.) These are stronger tie-ins than the Dolores sound-alike... but again who knows.

    Yesterday's ep. didn't give us TOO much more, it was more of a move-along-the-plot, introduce a couple things episode. I think.

    And of course we're getting closer to finding out what "the" IP is that's been stuffed into old Abernathy. It could just be a bunch of genome sequences with the associated behavioral quirks (to me, this is important host-building info.) Alternately, Abernathy might be stuffed full of Old Man Delos code from so long ago (if so, a failed experiment, since they've had him relegated to normal park roles.) There's a lot of interest based on the resemblance to the effect that he was built for old Delos (old 30 years ago.)

    Whether Abernathy has anything to do with migrating old Delos, I think that's their first consciousness-migration project. The whole human race is going to burn, as Logan puts it, because we're building our replacements... but also because everybody who can afford to will want a replacement. And in the interim, while there's a biological world out there, Delos has Manchurian Candidates all over the place < speculation, obviously, and nothing to do w/this ep.

    What did you think?
     
  8. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I really liked it but last week was so good. I thought it was a lot better than filler but get ur point.

    So Hale had 2 time lines last night. One w & w/out a vest.

    We know why Rebus stepped in front of that lady, "over my dead body". Bc he was changed by Bernie & Hale.

    You def could be right on the names. Could be too obvious, who knows.

    What did you think about when Delores told Bernie/Arnold that he never went outside the park even though he was years before?
     
  9. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Josh Gordon's locker is next to Brady's. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Arnold went outside the park with Delores. Bernard never has.
     
  10. PatsFanInVa

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    Well, great, this thing flipped a bit and now I can't quote Kontra. But he's right - Arnold was with Dolores outside the park, not Bernard.

    That was a really great way to get my gears turning about the "talks" Dolores has had with Bernard. Bear with me...

    1) First principles: That piece we kept seeing, "Do you know where you are?"/"I am in a dream"/something about not knowing whose dream it was, but it's not hers.

    1a) That's a great way to show a non-self-aware robot. A dream is by nature the dream you're having, if indeed you have a point of view on the dream. Let's assume that these scenes are in fact from Dolores' point of view.

    2) These talks break down into several possible sources.

    2a) A talk can be a memory of a talk with Arnold. These are possible through most of the timeline in S1.

    2b) A talk can be with Bernard. But it is possible that none of her talks were with Bernard. Does this contradict Dolores/Wyatt's reference to talks with Bernard? Not necessarily. Bernard remembers having these talks fr0m the parts of Arnold that he was permitted to retain.

    .....2b.1) When Ford constructed Bernard, regardless of this particular set of memories, he left intact Arnold's quest for host consciousness. How inconvenient :) Therefore, Ford at least finds it a "good story" that the hosts might achieve consciousness. It is likely that he's always shared Arnold's belief that the hosts can become conscious, but disagrees on how they can do so.

    In the source material, "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind," social dislocation/stress/suffering is necessary to achieve real self-reflective consciousness. This might be Ford's disagreement with Arnold; Arnold wants this to happen peacefully. Ford believes it can only happen through suffering. Pure speculation.

    3) Dolores' talks can be (and at the end of S1) are, with herself. "All... this... time" also suggests that all her talks are with herself.

    Turning to the source again, we know that it was a failure to try to make Jaynes' bicameral theory work through broadcasts of a "god voice." We also know that Arnold/Bernard is replaced by Dolores' "self" at the end of S1.

    So Arnold has played the "God side" of Dolores' mind, and as she achieves self-awareness, Arnold withdraws. She can remember him but she would no longer hear his voice - it would be replaced by an inner monolog, "consciousness."

    To me, all these speculations got tripped when now-conscious Dolores refers to her talks with Bernard. She also remembers shooting Arnold.

    It could be that Bernard never spoke to Dolores as Arnold used to, but Dolores knows that Bernard remembers that aspect of being Arnold. Or for that matter, depending on the content of each talk, every Arnold-Dolores talk could be from 30 years ago. You'd have to re-watch them for clues as to the period. As the present action unfolds in S1, she could be reasoning out what's happening through the "voice" of Arnold, left in her mind to develop consciousness. "Arnold"/The hallucination of Arnold, are part of her internal processing of current events, until she finally becomes conscious.

    Now back to the top: I did assume that Dolores is in Dolores' dream, not, for example, Bernard's. Occam's razor says they wouldn't be that byzantine about it. Occam's razor is only so useful a tool in this show. :)
     
  11. PatsFanInVa

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    PS, yes, a lot more than filler, by the standards of most offerings. By \W/ standards though... it had a lot that "had to happen" to get from point A to point B. The big battle of Fort Forgone Hope or whatever it's called, gives Teddy and Dolores/Wyatt an opportunity to differ about bloodthirstiness. This is also a glimmering of Teddy consciousness; he's programmed to do anything for Dolores; he has to square that with whatever he remembers/knows about Wyatt; the stressors are taking their toll, and Teddy takes an independent action. However, it's possible that this unfolding is scripted - remember, Ford tells us that he's leaving us with one last story. So, Teddy might be programmed to agree with Dolores stuff and disagree with Wyatt stuff, as indicated in the moment.

    I also don't know the extent to which Ford's "become" the park, as the composers he mentioned "became" their music. We watch him murdered, and we see his rotting corpse, and the showrunners assure us he's really dead. So on a 1-10 scale of certaintly, 3. If he's really biologically dead, he could have recorded all his Fordiness and uploaded it to the park in general. That's not really "becoming" his art, because it would be a record of who he was at that moment; Ford's work becomes immortal, at least for a time - but not Ford.
     
  12. PatsFanInVa

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    Don't know who she is. She totally reminded me of Theresa, because they're the two women in the future who smoke. And their mannerisms smoking are similar. They also have generally similar appearances and bearings. This show likes to cast dopplegangers. I am not certain how often it means something.
     
  13. BaconGrundleCandy

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    The smoking & just how nuts she was in general. Like she was a lil tapped but still seemed more aware then the guy she was w/ Idk just seemed like it could be but who knows.


    Ok but Bernie is just Arnold's consciousness, inside a robot, correct? Or am I off?

    I guess that's what I'm asking when they were outside, that was Delores & Arnold?
     
  14. PatsFanInVa

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    When they were outside of the park, right before that big party? That was Dolores & Arnold, way back in the past (roughly now.) They were trying to get Delos to invest in Westworld. Dolores was supposed to play the lead role, but she wasn't "ready," so they had the smokin' hot greeter host do it (her name's Angela.) Also, if you give Angela a 70s perm, she's a stone cold killer.

    Arnold/Bernard -
    Ford built a host that was a replacement for Arnold, who killed himself by proxy (Dolores/Wyatt shot him while he was listening to Debussy's "Reverie," I believe, on the scratchy old phonograph.)

    To do this, Ford had to give the host as much Arnoldy goodness as he could. That's all we know.

    In other words, we don't know that there was any consciousness transfer into the Arnold host. I think Bernard is just Ford's animatronic Arnold replacement (good reason for giving him a different name.) All from what Ford thought Arnold was like/should have been like.

    But the way they tell this story, you can never be sure. Arnold might have worked with Ford to make Bernard, for all we know... before he had himself killed to not open the park.
     
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  15. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Surprisingly I'm on the same page w/ all that & was at the time lol.

    Tough to explain but its not a big deal.

    So we also know the native American host that was with logan at the party also was hunting Meave pulling double duty in the ghost nation.

    ALso take a look at that map the tiger lady has. Clearly those escape pods that pop out the ground are labeled around the corners, 4. Then we have a tree in the middle w a path or map?

    Delos is def putting/selling host in the real world. Basically using the host as cameras, mirrors & stealing them. Has to be where Delores & M1B are heading. The HQ for the operation.

    That native American host from the party w logan has been doing double duty tho. He's in the scene w Maeve in the ghost nation going after her i believe.

    I def think delos is putting host
     
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  16. PatsFanInVa

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    I missed the Native American at the party w Logan; remember there are 2 parties in ep 2, one roughly our time (as in 2018ish), before Delos invested. The other was the retirement party for the older Delos. Both are very early compared with the "now" robot revolution.

    So whatever Native American was at a party, could have been the basis for a host, could have commissioned a host body (I think the big Delos payoff is immortality, hence all the talk of burning down the human species,) or like you say, could have been a host in the scene you're talking about, and a ghost nation warrior in the Park.

    I think we're going to learn a lot about the Ghost Nation "religion." I don't know when.

    "What a country," right?
     
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  17. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The 2 host that had Logan at the party to convine him. Everyone including the hot blonde & other native american guy were host as well.

    That guy was also in the ghost nation going after Meave & her daughter, ill look for pics but its def him I think

    Also I think were gona learn the nation or parts or other groups (hosts) are working or fighting for humans or good guys?

    Ford, Elise or Theresa, maybe someone else programed them to alter behavior if certain narratives or **** hit the fan?
     
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  18. PatsFanInVa

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    I also get the feeling that the Ghost Nation is so scary and whatnot they pretty much have to be more than meets the eye. However... humans are pretty much the bad guys... so maybe not human allies. Or maybe so, who knows LOL.

    I realized I really really need to marathon S1 yet AGAIN because I am trying to sort out what's knowable about Dolores and Arnold vs. Dolores and Bernard. Bastards with their timelines...
     
  19. KontradictioN

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    I don’t think you’re going to be able to sort that out until the writers sort that out for you.

    This season has been perfection so far. I just hope this show doesn’t eventually go the way of “Lost”.
     
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  20. PatsFanInVa

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    I didn't see Lost, but my understanding is people really loved it, but the end was some variety of "it was all a dream."

    Kind of ironic if you think about it, since the first thing on Westworld is "Do you know where you are?"/"I am in a dream."
     

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