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Tyquan Thornton already turning heads in the film room

2022 Patriots Season:
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Oct 2nd
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Ring 6

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I'm actually not taking the position that the system held them back. Edelman never played anywhere else. Welker played with a broken HGH Manning that had two other recievers which were the focus of the offense. I'm saying there's not enough evidence to say it helped or hindered recievers and how much it wad Brady elevating their game too
There is less evidence that it holds receivers back. By the way Welkers first season in Denver was Mannings best season if his career so he wasn’t broken down. Using Eric Decker as an excuse for why the guy put up great numbers along side moss and gronk is shaky at best.
 

Rob0729

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For proof of how hard the defense is, we can look at free agents who took a long time to produce rather than players who failed here and went elsewhere and peformed well. The name that comes to mind right off the bat is Jabar Gaffney. He was pretty invisible his first year here. He didn't join the Patriots until I think late September that year and never seemed to pick up the playbook. He became a solid role player his second year.
 

PatsFan2

Pro Bowl Player
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
The Pats had one of the harder playbooks in the league. Very few teams have presnap adjustments for the receivers beyond maybe a hot read. The Shanahan style of offense which is becoming the most en vogue offense today doesn't have any presnap reads or adjustments.
And we Drafted Harry no wonder he didn't know where to line up. :rolleyes:
 

DaBruinz

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That's the problem, which Patriots receivers have gone on to light it up anywhere else. Deon Branch was the only one that left for an ok career at Seattle. I'm not saying you're right or anyone else is right. No Patriots receivers have left the Pats and had major success somewhere else
People seem to forget about Terry Glenn.
Braxton Berrios is doing well for himself for the Jets.
 

One-If-By-Sea

In the Starting Line-Up
People keep talking up Braxton but i don't see 2 seasons at roughly 400 yards as lighting it up? I think his production only looks good if your expectations are incredibly low.

Braxton is limited. His deal is minimal $s and only 2 years because his play is not dynamic and he did not have other offers. There are a few who talk up Berrios - they appear to not be looking at what everyone else sees. I assume the posters are Berrios "personal fans". He is still in the league - just barely but Berrios did hang on - limited contract on one of the worse teams in the league.
 

DaBruinz

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People keep talking up Braxton but i don't see 2 seasons at roughly 400 yards as lighting it up? I think his production only looks good if your expectations are incredibly low.
What are YOUR expectations for a #3 receiver on a team that had Darnold and Flacco one year and then Zach Wilson, Mike White, Josh Johnson and Joe Flacco the next? I think putting up 394 and then 431 yards is pretty decent with those clusters.

No one is saying that Berrios is All-World. Just that contributing on the field both as a PR/KR and then Receiver is significantly more than he did with the Pats where he sat a year on the IR. That 30.4 YPR on 28 Kick returns is also pretty damn good.. Considering it led the league last year.
 

DaBruinz

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Braxton is limited. His deal is minimal $s and only 2 years because his play is not dynamic and he did not have other offers. There are a few who talk up Berrios - they appear to not be looking at what everyone else sees. I assume the posters are Berrios "personal fans". He is still in the league - just barely but Berrios did hang on - limited contract on one of the worse teams in the league.
A slot receiver who lead the league in KR, had one of the top PR averages in the league and contributed on offense as the #3/#4 receiver with a QB carousel of 4 different QBs is hardly "just hanging on". Guy was a 1st team All-Pro as a KR. That's not "just barely hanging on"

The fact that you call the Jets one of the worst teams in the league and ignore the QB carousel that they had last year but call Berrios limited begs the question of whether or not you have horse blinders on. Berrios got a 2yr/12M with $7M guaranteed contract as a #3 receiver and return man. That's hardly chump change. And it's about the going rate for Slot Receivers who are the #3 receiver on a team. It's a higher APY and more guaranteed money than Bourne got. It's the same APY that Emmanuel Sanders got from the Bills in 2021.

Where do you get that Berrios didn't have other offers? He re-signed with the Jets during the Legal Tampering Period, 2 days (March 14th)before the start of Free Agency (March 16th).
 

VJCPatriot

Pro Bowl Player
This is an age old coaching debate. How much of an advantage do you get by adding complexity to an offensive or defensive scheme vs how much of an advantage do you gain by simplifying a scheme so players can "play fast".

I went through the same thing over 50 years ago at the HS level, when you had 60 odd kids (some of whom have never played before) and 4 or 5 coaches and had 3 weeks to get ready for an entire season and no spring football, AND its a part time job. Imagine when you have a dozen or more coaches and another dozen or so support staff, PLUS an unlimited amount of time. So YEAH, it would be very easy to create very complex schemes, routes and plays that would seemingly give that scheme advantages.

Obviously if your team is able to absorb all the complexity you have your advantage. However if you slip just a bit too much, then you risk creating execution flaws. Plus the fact is that not all athletes process what they see at the same rate. It doesn't make them stupid, its just how they are wired.

I don't think you can compare high school football to pro football. When you enter the NFL you are now doing this for a JOB not as a hobby.

These are now MEN who have finished college or are now out of college having flashed enough tools to indicate that they are legitimate pro prospects. There is and should be a huge difference in ability and mindset comparing adult pro athletes to kids in their teens who are doing football mostly for fun.

From the comments of past players, it's obvious that the Patriots have one of the tougher playbooks in the league. But so what? In the end it's still football and not rocket science.

If you watch this video, BOB breaks down some of the concepts the Patriots exploit in their option routes:
You can start to understand what they are looking for. They are trying to find, exploit, and create favorable matchups. The most 'brain processing' is demanded from the QB position. The WR just needs to be where the QB expects him to be based on the read, and then they should be able to find an opening or mismatch in the defense if the route concept the play called for works.

During the week, the team will get what, dozens of snaps practicing those concepts? Over the course of the season, hundreds of snaps? Add film study, team meetings, and your own personal study for those motivated enough to perfect their craft. This is the stuff that you EXPECT your dedicated professional who does this JOB for a living to get down.

I get it some guys aren't suited for the Patriots style offense. But it's not rocket science. Football requires football IQ, which is a different thing than academic IQ where you stuff your nose in a book and memorize complicated math fomulas. Some football players can create dynamic situations on the field due to their pure talent in the moment, but every playcall expects players to at least know how to get into the position that the QB expects them to be in so they get the opportunity to make the play if the defense at that time gives them that chance.

Simplify the language of the play calls, cool. That's fine. The Patriots are reportedly doing that this year. That probably helps the players do their job a little easier. But if you don't get the playbook, it's on you, the player, not the system imo. Study HARDER. Put in the extra hours to know your assignment, learn how to read a defense, learn where the QB wants you to be. If you're not sure, ask the QB, hey on this play, if I read this, where would you like me to be? They work in the SAME building, it's not like you can't communicate with him, in fact I'm sure the QB would appreciate it if the WR approached him and asked him these questions.

A complex system is not a suitable EXCUSE for a professional football player not to DO their damn job! So stop making excuses. Wide receivers like N'Keal Harry didn't fail because of the system, they failed because they didn't GIT GUD for their damn job!
 

Kasmir

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
A slot receiver who lead the league in KR, had one of the top PR averages in the league and contributed on offense as the #3/#4 receiver with a QB carousel of 4 different QBs is hardly "just hanging on". Guy was a 1st team All-Pro as a KR. That's not "just barely hanging on"

The fact that you call the Jets one of the worst teams in the league and ignore the QB carousel that they had last year but call Berrios limited begs the question of whether or not you have horse blinders on. Berrios got a 2yr/12M with $7M guaranteed contract as a #3 receiver and return man. That's hardly chump change. And it's about the going rate for Slot Receivers who are the #3 receiver on a team. It's a higher APY and more guaranteed money than Bourne got. It's the same APY that Emmanuel Sanders got from the Bills in 2021.

Where do you get that Berrios didn't have other offers? He re-signed with the Jets during the Legal Tampering Period, 2 days (March 14th)before the start of Free Agency (March 16th).
Yeah they went with Gunner instead of Berrios. In retrospect probably the wrong choice, although Gunner had a historic PR year in 2020. Both careers are still in progress so we'll have to wait to see...
 

Ollie

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
What are YOUR expectations for a #3 receiver on a team that had Darnold and Flacco one year and then Zach Wilson, Mike White, Josh Johnson and Joe Flacco the next? I think putting up 394 and then 431 yards is pretty decent with those clusters.

No one is saying that Berrios is All-World. Just that contributing on the field both as a PR/KR and then Receiver is significantly more than he did with the Pats where he sat a year on the IR. That 30.4 YPR on 28 Kick returns is also pretty damn good.. Considering it led the league last year.
The post was regarding which receivers have gone on to have much better numbers as receivers when they have left suggesting we might not be getting the best out of these players when they are here. Sure Berrios has proven to be a great KR and adding that to his WR stats represents good value but at the time we had two players who were very similar with Gunnar. Gunnar had just had an all pro year as a punt returner so we went one way. As a receiver Berrios is adequate and thats it and my post was more in response to some posts i've seen that criticise Bill for letting go of a superstar WR. It might have been better to keep Berrios and let Gunnar go with hindsight but as a WR alone he isn't getting in the squad this year ahead of Bourne, Meyers, Agholor, Parker or Thornton.
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
Gunner came along in 2019, Berrios was cut because he was inconsistent and dropped easily catchable passes and punts... he said recently getting cut from New England was the impetus that drove him to improve.

All rookies don't develop at the same speed, just because a player is not wildly successful in his first 1-3 years doesn't make him a bust.
 

Ring 6

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The post was regarding which receivers have gone on to have much better numbers as receivers when they have left suggesting we might not be getting the best out of these players when they are here. Sure Berrios has proven to be a great KR and adding that to his WR stats represents good value but at the time we had two players who were very similar with Gunnar. Gunnar had just had an all pro year as a punt returner so we went one way. As a receiver Berrios is adequate and thats it and my post was more in response to some posts i've seen that criticise Bill for letting go of a superstar WR. It might have been better to keep Berrios and let Gunnar go with hindsight but as a WR alone he isn't getting in the squad this year ahead of Bourne, Meyers, Agholor, Parker or Thornton.
If Gunner had been on the Jets and had to play because they had no one else to play WR like happened to Berrios he would have put up similar mediocre receiving numbers.
 

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