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The new Star Wars -- let's discuss (includes spoilers)

Discussion in 'The PatsFans.com Pub' started by Tunescribe, Jan 1, 2016.

  1. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Saw it tonight, had some mixed feelings about it. Please read no further if you haven't seen it and want to avoid spoilers.

    What I liked about it:
    * GREAT pacing and storytelling.
    * Excellent visuals/special effects.
    * Felt like a throwback to the first Star Wars.

    What I wasn't thrilled about:
    * Didn't find Kylo Ren all that convincing a villain, too much like "conflicted angry young man" Anakin Skywalker from the prequels. There should've been more backstory character development to explain his move to the Dark Side other than just saying it occurred when he was sent away for Jedi training.
    * Killing off Solo with such finality wasn't necessary aside from Harrison Ford apparently wanting to be done with the role. Ford's performance carried the movie.
    * The chemistry between Leia and Solo was really stilted, but I guess they did the best they could with it. I wanted her to be a bit more "fiery" in his presence but on the other hand she was suitably world-weary.
    * All those Brits and British accents inserted to convey "gravitas" is getting cliched.

    What I hope they DON'T do going forward:
    * Don't make Finn and Rey into feuding lovers a la Solo and Leia. Do something different with these two.
    * Don't make Kylo Ren and Snoke into carbon copies of Darth Vader and the emperor.
    * Don't make Skywalker into another Obi-Wan Kenobi.
    * I hope we're done with the bad guys' mega-weapon plot device.

    What I hope they DO going forward:
    * Spend more time fleshing out the new characters.
    * Give Rey some convincing vulnerability, less of the Xena "power chick" persona.
    * Less focus on fighter-in-the-sky shootouts (and shootouts in general), more focus on exploring other worlds.
    * Deeper exploration of the positive Force and Jedi philosophy.
    * Make the story lines less predictable.

    Please weigh in with your thoughts and observations!
     
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  2. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Florida Man PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I didn't like at all how they bitch made Ren at the end. I understand the Force is strong with Rey, but she could pick up a lightsaber without any training whatsoever and out duel him? Not buying that. Unfortunately, I think they are going to make Snoke and Ren carbon copies of Palpatine and Vader. Is Snoke the guy Palpatine was talking about cheating death in Episode III?
     
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  3. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yup. Another wishy-washy bad guy. I want my movie bad guys respectably hateable and threatening, not gay and conflicted.

    Also mind-tricking the stormtrooper to release her restraints suddenly just "came" to her. (Since she's Jedi material I wonder whose daughter she turns out to be.) Other than being pretty she might as well be a man -- totally self-sufficient, resourceful, mechanically inclined, good in a fight, etc.

    As indicated by Snoke saying Ren must return to him for further training. Which means just more of the same with difference faces. Why can't they show more imagination?

    I don't remember that.

    I keep thinking, have you ever seen an actor look less like their former self than Carrie Fisher?
     
  4. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Florida Man PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The story of the Sith lord who had the power to cheat death was ultimately how Palpatine got Anakin to turn to the dark side. It was when he revealed himself to Anakin and Anakin pulled his lightsaber on him. I think Snoke is who Palpatine was referring to.
     
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  5. YOUGOTMOSSED

    YOUGOTMOSSED In the Starting Line-Up

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    Leaving aside all the JJ Abrams/Disney's corporate and PC bullcrap (which would be a lengthy discussion in and of itself), the main problem was simply the film's lack of originality. It's just a re-write of the original Stars Wars with a few changes (for the worse IMO).

    The worst of these changes is the Rey character. With zero training, she already kicking ass like a video game character playing on "God mode." How is this character suppose to arc/develop? Where is the story suppose to go? Is Luke supposed to train her? Look like she already has this whole force thing mastered already without the need for training.:rolleyes:
     
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  6. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Agreed, 100 percent. Too many things were way too expedient, including the "affair" between Finn and Rey.

    I know this is corporate movie-making and not great literature, but I was hoping for more. (I was more impressed with Abrams' take on Star Trek.) As already noted in this thread, it's shaping up to be just another Vader/emperor vs. the young Jedis/Resistance, and Skywalker looks to be the new Obi-Wan.

    A great way to have handled Rey's development would've been a la Uma Thurman's Beatrix Kiddo in "Kill Bill Vol. II" -- make her EARN it, and then we'll buy it!

    So, I'd like to hear your take on the "JJ Abrams/Disney's corporate and PC bullcrap." I was thinking if they really wanted to be "PC daring," the Rey character could've been the black one. ;) Instead, she's a smart-ass Caucasian Brit.
     
  7. YOUGOTMOSSED

    YOUGOTMOSSED In the Starting Line-Up

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    Well, JJ Abrams is a notorious SJW even by Hollywood standards. I recall reading a quote by him online where he complained during the casting phase of the movie about the pool of applicants being "too white", which was a complaint echo by many SJW's about the first Stars Wars movie.

    But was the original Star Wars trilogy really that bad?

    All things considering, wasn't Leia still a "strong female character" despite being the classic "damsel in distress?"

    Lando Calrissian was a cool, suave, interesting character. Not a"blacksploitation" stereotype or idealized PC version of a minority character.

    Mon Mothma was a highly respected leader in the rebel army.

    Seemed pretty progressive to me especially for a 70's movie.

    Regarding the Han Solo- Princess Leia chemistry versus whatever was going on between Rey and Finn. Han Solo winning over the heart of the princess with ****iness and swag seems much, much cooler and authentic than Finn swooning over Rey like an awkward, lovesick teenager.
     
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  8. Tom meets Kaepernick

    Tom meets Kaepernick Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I can see you already have the same suspicions as I do about who Rey's parents may be. In my opinion, I believe that Rey is too much like a Mary Sue. That being said, just for the sake of being the contrarian, I have seen theories suggesting that she was originally trained by Luke during the time when Ben(Kylo) turned against the Jedi and was sent away to Jakku, that I could honestly see happening. Whether I like that or not is something I haven't even decided yet.

    Also, I understand and agree with many of the criticisms of the Rey/Ren duel at the end. Rey spends a majority of both of their confrontations running away. Then suddenly, Ren corners her at the edge of the cliff, she closes her eyes, says force a couple of times and suddenly starts kicking ass? I think bleeding out probably had more of an effect on Ren during that battle that some might believe, leading to his defeat by Rey, but still, he probably shouldn't have really been that outplayed.

    Also with Rey and Ren, I believe Disney is going to want to show their progression as users of the Force and their roles as Jedi and Sith respectively. It's gonna be something you look at once the last 2 movies are over with and go "Wow, I can't believe how much more badass Ren is now! He was a bitch in the first movie."

    I think many of our questions will be answered such as what really caused Ben Solo to become Kylo Ren, who Rey's parents were, etc. A feeling that I felt was similar to the originals was that it left me with questions I looked forward to getting the answers to. The prequels just seemed to wrap any questions you might have about the movie, save for Anakin's turn to the dark side. You didn't really look forward to the next film because, other than being bad Star Wars movies, there was nothing you looked forward to being answered as it was already answered during the film and rather sloppily.
     
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  9. Tom meets Kaepernick

    Tom meets Kaepernick Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    And one other thing: Finn annoyed me throughout the movie. I felt he overacted in a few too many scenes. I thought Daisy Ridley did a great job portraying Rey and being pretty damn cute didn't hurt either ;)
     
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  10. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This guy makes the movie look like Swiss cheese while presenting many valid points:

    11 Serious Problems With The New Star Wars Movie

    One of the most glaring: why did Finn suddenly decide to break ranks and become a rebel? In the process he didn't seem to have any qualms slaughtering dozens of his fellow stormtrooper buddies who, one would assume, were as "exploited and used" as he was by the First Order (or whatever they're calling the Empire now).
     
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  11. YOUGOTMOSSED

    YOUGOTMOSSED In the Starting Line-Up

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    I've never heard the term "The Mary Sue" character until someone recently pointed it out to me. It described Rey to a t. Here's a wikipedia link:

    Mary Sue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
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  12. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I watched 1-3 with my son more than a few years ago, also watched 4-7 which did not do a lot for me..

    The most recent one watched with my grandchildren and it felt very much like episodes 1-3...

    It was very entertaining, even with the Harrison Ford silliness, which was present previously.. thought that Carrie Fischer played a good part, and not sure about the future of Luke..
     
  13. meatface

    meatface Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    isnt that luke too, zero training and can somehow fly an X-wing better than anyone and becomes a Jedi with like 2 days of training
     
  14. gitgronked82

    gitgronked82 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    it hit big with nostalgia for me. was cool just to be reminded of how awesome some of the earlier ones were.



    that was also kind of the problem, though. it seemed to be the same thing. as other people have discussed, it's the same characters with different names. of course they basically had to destroy the death star again (and it had just one weakness). kylo ren sucked as a villain. dude couldn't defeat someone holding a saber for the first time and he turned out to be about as scary as peyton manning in january...


    also felt like Rey was kind of forced... I don't have a problem with a woman being the protagonist, but it seemed like they were just trying to shove it down our throats. almost like a feminist message. "No, don't hold my hand! I don't need no man!"


    still had a lot of fun watching the movie... just not sure it was all that good though
     
  15. YOUGOTMOSSED

    YOUGOTMOSSED In the Starting Line-Up

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    Not really. In Empire, Luke's Jedi training was interrupted when he learned his friends were in distress. Against his trainer's advice, he went to confront Vader (despite being clearly over-matched) to save his friends. Predictably, he got his ass kicked by Vader. The scene where he confronted Vader was tense and scary.

    Also, in Star Wars, Luke seemed to struggle when first using the light saber even with Obi Wan's guidance.

    By contrast, "Mary Sue" Rey already had "Obi Wan" levels of force mastery despite being hardly familiar with the force and despite no formal training. She was able to simply pick up a light saber and beat the guy who chased away Luke Skywalker and the new jedi he was training.

    It's just lazy, crummy, politically-motivated writing that made this movie little more than a sh*tty, PC remake of the original. IMO
     
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  16. YOUGOTMOSSED

    YOUGOTMOSSED In the Starting Line-Up

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    Nothing wrong with a female protagonist if done correctly.
    For example:
    Sigourney Weaver in Aliens=good;
    Sarah Connor in Terminator=good;
    Uma Thurman in Kill Bill=good.

    When you fall into the "Mary Sue" trap and it's not done as comedy or campy, the results are a disaster:
    For example:
    Tauriel in The Hobbit= bad;
    Rey in Star Wars= really f*ckin bad.
     
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  17. meatface

    meatface Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    oh please with this "woe be for the man" thing. Luke is some water farmers nephew who flew speeders sometimes and can somehow fly an X-wing better than anyone else in the rebel fleet. Not to mention the fact that he somehow guides his torpedoes to the proper spot where a computer couldn't despite again 2 days training. We also have no idea how good Kylo ren really is, yes he stopped a blaster shot but other than that the only thing he defeated were several objects. Luke didnt run because he was scared of Ren, he was pained by his turn to the dark side and the loss of the new jedi order he had tried to create. There are also a ton of factors that play into rey winning, the force awakening and becoming more powerful, the lightsaber calling to her in the bar and of course Kylo ren being wounded from a crossbow blast to the side. If you had a male character doing the same stuff (which they kind of have had) then you wouldnt be complaining about him being a gary sue
     
  18. resdubwhite

    resdubwhite In the Starting Line-Up

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    aren't we kind of missing the point?

    I mean. Star wars, plot holes. Episodes 4-6 and 1-3 were riddled with them.
    its about a good time, light sabres and death stars. everything thing else is and was superfluous.

    As for Rey its almost 100% certain she's had jedi training and its pretty obvious what her family background is. I think Disney released a teaser earlier on in the summer with a Luke voiceover intimating it.
     
  19. neuronet

    neuronet Homer Little PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here's my take, cut and paste from an email with a friend, so I know it repeats some points from above....
    ---------------
    I was overall disappointed because it basically was plagiarized Star Wars, and criticize him all you want, Lucas always pushed into original territory. I could have forgiven pretty much all the other problems if it wasn't for this one. I mean....seriously, ANOTHER ****ing death star clone? The almost universal critical acclaim is something of a headscratcher for me, frankly.

    I also didn't like the unexplained rejection, by Finn, of basically a lifetime of conditioning: this kind of unexplained instantaneous epiphany by a freaking *stormtrooper* needs more back story.

    Their ability to command the force without any training was stupid. That **** takes years of training, so things like making a light saber move one inch is a big deal. Nope, instead let's just make them masters even if they've had zero training.

    The replacement emperor hologram dude was awesome. Will be sweet if we see that in person he is like 3 centimeters tall and rides around on a trained mouse.

    Chewbacca is somehow incapable of being anything but awesome.

    The poorly cast guy from Girls. I couldn't get that dope out of my head. WTF.

    Han was hot/cold I thought. Started cold but was pretty awesome by the time he was killed by his sulky bitch ass of a son.

    Princess Leia was awful. Her denture lisp was a constant distraction. It was like watching Mr Herbert from Family Guy.

    I do have some hope for the next installments, perhaps they will strike into some cool original territory with Luke. I wish they had been more original, but hopefully they will pull off something better in the next one.

    Overall, they mistakenly thought that honoring the franchise meant cut and paste from the franchise. That's BS: you honor a work of art not by photocopying but by capturing some of its spirit and pushing it in creative new ways. They were not creative enough, and slavishly followed plot lines Lucas has already worn thin. Boo! Maybe in the next one it won't be a death planet, but a black hole that they can use as a weapon.

    For goodness' sake we get it they like big powerful weapons with fatal flaws that are protected with shields that are ridiculously easy to deactivate when you infiltrate the base because the base never has enough cameras to detect intruders for some reason. Because a long time ago, and far away, apparently cameras are as expensive as the NFL thinks sideline cameras are. Adding wings to a light sabre is not enough: I did that in Kindergarten 20 years ago: we needed better storylines.

    Better luck next time.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
  20. Zuma

    Zuma Happy Endings PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Great movie....loved it. I will be disappointed if Rey is not either Luke's daughter or Obi Wan's granddaughter.
     

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