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Discussion in 'The PatsFans.com Pub' started by 3 to be 4, Aug 9, 2006.

  1. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    verbal persecution? I didnt make you read anything. I didnt hit you. I havent "assualted" you. Nor have you to me.

    Im talking with you. And frankly, im enjoying the challenge of it because it forces me to think about your answers and apply it to what I believe and know.

    These threads are a blessing to me and I welcome more feedback.

    But dont get too focused on me. Read the scripture again. The verses that clearly indicate the coming King. And ponder Jesus. He loves you.
     
  2. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I, too, have appreciated our exchange.

    I applaud your striving to find a way and to respect your fellow human beings more.

    I hope you realize that the unsolicited proselytizing (no matter how well intentioned) may inadvertently touch a nerve when put in an historic context of what has been done to "help" the Jews over the centuries.

    There are many reasons why I am very happy in my belief and don't subscribe to the "reported" teachings of only ONE of the more than 3,000 Jewish prophets (there's a sarcastic line about he who has the best PR-marketing agency that could be put in there) who were crucified during the Roman occupation. Ever think that the other 2,999 may have had messages also? Wonder what history would have looked like if they had an ancient version of Karl Rove working for THEM?

    Please don't take my writings as judging your INTERNAL spiritual struggle. I applaud that and hope you find what you're looking for. My only criticism is your proselytizing to others with such certitude. I'm OK, you're OK.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2006
  3. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Pro Bowl Player

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    Interestingly, to follow up on my earlier point, I believe that when Pope John Paul II was pressed on the issue of whether only Christians (or I suppose Roman Catholics) are the only religion capable of going to heaven, his answer was a clear "no" - that other religions can achieve grace with God and gain entrance to heaven.

    So it seems like even the Pope wasn't saying that Ghandi and Buddah were going to hell...

    Seems to me that so many religions are obsessed with trying to prove that God's on their side that they lose focus on whether or not they're on God's side. This is especially true for many of the "competing" Christian religions, be they Mormons, Evangellicals, Baptists, Catholics, Episcopalian... etc... even though all agree that Jesus Christ is the way (I think I'd say "a way") to salvation it seems to me that they're all hung up with the need to adhere to the particular aspects of each distinct religion.

    Ironically I've found great wisdom in the Gospel according to Monty Python on this matter, in the movie "The Meaning of Life" which has very little to do with the meaning of life, save for one short passage:

     
  4. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Excellent points, Joe. One could say that the more insecure a theology, the more frenetic it's adherents are to gain converts. Insecure theologies are like insecure people. Insecure people "act out". Insecure sects of theologies have "crusades" or "jihads" or applauds someone who assassinates their own Prime Minister as some ultra-"religious" Israeli Jews did regarding Yitzak Rabin.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2006
  5. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I thank you for your kind words. And Im not being anything but sincere.

    now id like to address 2 things

    proselytizing:

    1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
    2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
    v.tr.
    To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.

    I agree that forcing one into joining anything is useless and barbaric. if one is forced, its not a real conversion anyway.

    induce:


    To lead or move, as to a course of action, by influence or persuasion. See synonyms at persuade.
    To bring about or stimulate the occurrence of; cause: a drug used to induce labor.
    To infer by inductive reasoning.

    to lead, to bring about, to infer by inductive reasoning.
    Why is this a problem?

    I believe with every ounce of by being in something and that something wants me to spread the word. I dont tell other people of other faiths that they cannot do the same thing.

    If a Jew wants to add a link to offers reasons i welcome it. Muslims too.

    one is not truly converted by anyone else. Nobody converted me. I was Saved by Grace. But others prayed for me. And gave information. I learned about Jesus Christ and his life. I went to temple and started reading myself.
    I learned about the Old Testament. I learned about the Christs death and his resurrection. And about the people who saw him and died following him. And by Grace it came to me.

    I share with others because others shared with me. And I vow to remember the things that held me back, the mean Christians and religious people, so that I dont do the same to others. But faith not shared is selfish.

    Im not abusive to anybody. I dont tell others horrible things about themselves. I focus on Jesus, on Scripture, and how I was Saved. And I keep it real and tell you you dont have to be a perfect person to follow Christ.

    I know its very emotional for Jews especially because of the guilt that they might feel going against something that has been told to them their whole lives by people they love. "What would my parents say?"
    I understand that. But thats not a reason to believe or not to believe.

    Im just offering information and sharing what has happened for me.


    Now, about the 3,000 Jewish prophets..............

    I dont think the other 2,999 fulfilled hundreds of Old Testament prophesies.

    some people say "well Jesus made the prophesies happen" well, that would be true if he did stuff to others. how do you make someone else betray you for 30 pieces of silver, the exact amount prophesised? Does a sane person want to get himself pierced and crucified? how do you get hundreds of people to go along with it, none of them cracking. for what? what were the rewards for the people tortured to death?

    these are just questions. Seek your own answers, please. Read the link i sent, but more importantly, read the Gospels, and ask God to show you whether its true or not. Im not the final representitive. or any other Christian. or Christianity. Go straight to Jesus and ask him.

    And know that He loves you.
     
  6. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    One simple question: How do you know that?

    I certainly hope that didn't blow your mind. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2006
  7. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    because I read the Bible. how did the other 2,999 fulfill anything from the Old Testament?

    i gave examples of how Jesus did.

    and again, here are others..

    http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Jews_Information_Desk/Forcast_of_jesus.htm

    beyond that, I also have Faith.

    Jesus loves you.
     
  8. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Exactly. Because someone wrote it.

    And that is the limit of your understanding on the matter. Did it occur to you that some things happened that went unwritten? If a tree falls in the middle of a forest, it STILL makes a sound. Doesn't matter if a publicist was there to market (or embellish, perhaps?) the event. There was a troll on the Fan Forum who claimed that she was married to the REAL Tom Brady and that the one who plays for the Patriots is merely a clone escaped from a laboratory in Czechoslavakia. That was something that was "written" also.

    Lots of things are written. Could it possibly be that one of the other 2,999 cruelly crucified Jews was the REAL thing and that Jesus just had the better publicists?

    Just a thought on a beautiful day.

    There are people who love you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2006
  9. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A follow-up to my previous post:

    I appreciate you baring your soul in these threads, I know it's not easy. It is only fair to also let you know why I believe what I believe.

    I don't base my Jewish beliefs on the Torah because it is "written". My intensely personal Jewish belief is based far more on the spirituality of Judaism, not what was put on paper by someone four thousand years ago. I am interested in the MEANING, not the writing. I care not to live by some legal document to be used as "proof" like in a courtroom (http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Jews_Information_Desk/Forcast_of_jesus.htm) but by a spirit of values.

    Someone named Dr Trudy Turner of Illinois puts it far better than I can regarding the concept of Tikun Olam (healing the World):

    "Tikun Olam - the imperative to repair the world - reflects the Jewish values of Justice (tzedakah), Compassion (hesed) and Peace (shalom). The concept, originally formulated by Rabbi Isaac Luria in sixteenth century Safad, has come to symbolize the quest for social justice, freedom, equality, peace and the restoration of the environment. It is a call to action - to repair the world through social action. It recognizes that each act of kindness, no matter how small, helps to build a new world."

    I hope this can give you some insight into why the explanation that "because it is written" does not give me an epiphany.

    There are people who love you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2006
  10. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Good stuff. Bit i must admit this is very much like a rubber band to me. For when I talk of my personal spiritual changes it gets thrown back that people dont want to hear about people "getting Saved while watching Van Halen" etc etc. And when I talk of real, researched scriptural reasons, then i hear what you are saying.
    Now im not saying you alone are the one with these contradictions, I just find it interesting that depending on what im emphasising at the time, thats what the other person does a lot.
    For me, my believes arent just one or the other. I had an amazing life changing experience the day I connected with Jesus Christ. And I have no wat to tell you why it happened on March 28, 2005 and not March 27th or March 29th. It was by Grace. Then things started becoming clearer to me as I researched what was written. Christian Faith is not "Blind Faith". We have written reasons. And we have personal reasons.

    Why is all written material no good? Harvard is full of written material. The Boston Herald and the Boston Globe has written material. There are ways to authenticate things.

    Finally, I know you said you dont, but i put this out to other Jews. Do Jews read the Old Testament? Did the Jews in the days of Jesus follow it? Isnt that a glue that determines what it means to be Jewish, what is teached? What has been experienced? or is being Jewish just prcticing social action?
    Because that sounds like a political party more than a Faith to me.

    And if being Jewish is based on something more than compassion, what is it based on if not a set of principles and beliefs others can learn about and follow together?

    Again, i come back to, if im saying to a group of people who follow a wriiten word ( in know you said you dont but i would think most people of a Faith would) that based on your own words this follows this, whats wrong with that?

    people try to get other people to see their side of the story every day of the week about everything under the sun. I think Brady is better than Bledsoe and here is why. Is that offensive? If I say YOU BETTER BELIEVE BRADY IS BETTER or YOU'RE A JERK BECAUSE I BELIEVE....that would indeed be wrong.

    I offered scriptural reasons. I asked for responses. None came. Then when that didnt work the arguement seemed to shift to - you cant trust anything written anyway. Its all about what comes to you.

    In that case, you'll enjoy hearing my spiritual testimony im sure.

    Again, I thank you for all your thoughtful responses this week. Its been a blessing to me and I look forward to more discussion.

    Jesus Christ Loves You.
     
  11. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When did I ever write that I don't read the Old Testament? I don't blindly believe every word of it, but I never wrote that I don't read it. Do you believe that reading something automatically means believing it? I've read portions of the New Testament,the Koran and Mein Kampf, but I don't believe many portions of those either.


    The day I automatically believe every word I read............
     
  12. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    3tobe4 wrote: "Because that sounds like a political party more than a Faith to me."
    ____________________________________________-

    Takes one to know one, right Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, John Ashcroft?:)
     
  13. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Same here, 3tobe4. Shabbat Shalom my fellow searcher!

    There are people who love you :)
     
  14. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Pro Bowl Player

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    That being said, in taking heed of my own advice, I know I'm well off the narrow path to the summit I referenced

    and while I tend to join in with you and others who caution those of firm resolve in their faiths to respect the faith of others, I'd be willing to admit that 3 to be 4 is closer to finding his way back to that narrow path than I am

    As such, with the exception of the potential lack of deference many evangelicals have for the faith of others, I do hold a great amount of respect and awe for those who, as 3 to be 4 endeavors, attempt to put their worldly desires secondary to their faith
     
  15. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I, too, applaud 3tobe4 in his search and his openness. I have very much gained from posting with him the past few days and I appreciate his journey.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2005
  16. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    my apologies if you took that question as anything but literal. I was truly asking if, in general, Jews read the Old Testament? And if they believe it?
     
  17. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    i dont happen to care for Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and John Ashcroft and they are by no means a reflection of Jesus Christ. for every one of that ilk there are thousands of wonderful pastors and preachers that work tirelessly for the Lord and give of themselves in ways none of us would ever dream.

    That didnt in any way answer my response to the thoughts you put out there that being Jewish was simply about finding ways to improve things socially. They may very well do that, but thats not at its core, the definition of Judaism.
     
  18. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Thank you for those kind words. And I, yours.
     

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