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Discussion in 'The PatsFans.com Pub' started by PatsFanInVa, Sep 7, 2006.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I've been saying for quite some time I refuse to discuss details of my faith with you, 3.

    It is not that I cant' discuss these details. It is that I refuse to.

    You've gotten sillier and sillier here, and your latest taunting is just beneath the level of discourse.

    Have an interesting journey, and I wish you a safe return, if ever you desire it.

    PFnV
     
  2. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    right, but keep on lying about me and my faith. You "refuse to" because you have to go research it. Dont go tearing down others faith if you cant discuss your own.
     
  3. CPF

    CPF Practice Squad Player

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    Uhm, not really because here you are having the last word…….or am I having the last word? I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

    It’s a shame they have nobody to defend them against this hideous defamation, hey maybe you could give me their e-mail;)

    I just love it when you tell me what I’m thinking……why is it we never got along? I mean, what could be better than condescending smugness?

    Your comments regarding the Mosaic Covenant only serves to highlight the need for a new and better covenant, which of course we now have in the shed blood of Christ. As I said before, the Mosaic Covenant’s purpose was to highlight sin, to show it for exactly what it is. The more one tries to be obedient to the Law the more he/she realizes that they can’t possibly do it, and thus they realize their state of hopelessness apart from God and His plan of salvation. Oh geez, there I go proselytizing again, I guess you will just have to accept my apologies on behalf of myself and my brothers and sisters in Christ who are simply trying to follow His commandments.

    Nice, a subtle brainwashing reference. I can think for myself thanks. I can also read the Scriptures as they lay out the requirements of the Covenant; you do still consider yourself the “Covenant people†right? If you can’t do the majority of what the Covenant commands then what covenant are you part of? By who’s authority were these convocations set aside?

    That fact that you call the NT “purely Christian documents†only serves to show just how little you have studied them. They were written by Jews in order to show the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy and thus are filled with references and quotes taken directly from the Hebrew Scriptures. Have you ever actually read the NT?

    You do? Then you know exactly what I have been talking about regarding the Mosaic Covenant, the blessings, the curses, blood atonement and the like. You see that’s all I have been doing, pointing out Scripture, asking your opinion and rebutting with my own. Do I have motivations in doing so? Of course I do; what good is having a deeply held religious conviction if you are not willing to stretch it and test it against opposing viewpoints? Should we all just curl into our own little religious shells?

    Mmmhmmm….let me see if I understand, you would “mop the floor with me†on my faith? Maybe you didn’t hear me the first time, what you think about Christianity is irrelevant because you are not Christian, you’re a Jew, end of story! Oh I do so like that phrase, thanks for providing me with it, oh and also for rationalizing it’s inoffensiveness. As I said before, for a guy that doesn’t want to argue, you sure do a lot of it.

    Sadly no it hasn’t, but hey maybe I’ll at least finally get the last word! Take care, CPF
     
  4. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    by the way, CPF, are you going to jump in? the waters fine
     
  5. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    oh there you are. Whats up, brother? its fun tonight.
     
  6. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're right, you don't really get all that ticked off.
     
  7. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    exactly :)
     
  8. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    CPF, I suppose I shouldn't have said goodbye so soon. Jihad me at hello.

    You're right. What I think of your Christianity is irrelevant from the point of view of your faith. I am not a Christian. I do not have standing to tell you how Christians should believe, or how Christians should worship.

    Just as despite your and 3toB's harassment and goading, you have no standing to discuss Judaism. You are both mistaken as far as my knowledge of both Jewish and Christian scripture goes, but those are just random insults on your part (perhaps God commanded you to make them.)

    My concern is specifically not to engage you concerning the problem for some interpretations of Christianity, of the continuing existence of Jews. My concern is to continue to explain your lack of standing to make the argument. As you say, it is a good thing for you, as a Christian, to know that some Muslim, Buddhist, or other non-Christian cannot walk up and say "If you're really Christian you should believe in [Mohammad, the Buddha, etc.]" It's an absurd notion you should not consider.

    Similarly I cannot dictate what you should believe. I can only tell you the facts of your actions and their consequences in the real world. I've done this on a number of occasions on these threads.

    As to my insight into your tactics and mindset, I laid out your argument for you before you made it; that should give you an idea whether or not I am aware of your viewpoint and your tactics.

    I told you the next step in your argument would be that, since the Mosaic covenant is not a possibility even for the Orthodox, according to the replacement theology employed by those who make this argument, your next step would be to argue for the need to accept Jesus to replace the covenant.

    Gee. How did I know that? I guess it was a lucky guess.

    I am not gracing this often-argued theme with a response. It's historically been an impotent argument from the point of view of Jews, but it evidently convinces a great number of Christian proselytizers that they've really got a great new angle with which to tackle this convert-the-Jews problem.

    As to my own knowledge of Christian scriptures, I do know a bit about them, and have read them. I do have to say I've spent more time on the gospels than on Paul's letters and Acts, because I was more interested in reading about Jesus than about the early church. We have conjecture as to the authorship of the four gospels, and certainly the theorists believe the writers of "Matthew" and "Mark" were likely born to Jewish families. The trouble is, nobody "signed" these manuscripts. Did "Matthew" and "Mark" remain Jewish, if in fact they were born to Jewish families, or did they become Christians, in the modern sense? I believe these authors did in fact convert to Christianity. We know that Paul did. This makes the Greek bible a Christian document.

    Since you are a Christian, you're free to believe what you like about Christianity without considering my input; you see, the thing is that is exactly what would happen regardless of what I said on the topic. End of story, as we both now like to put it.

    Since I am a Jew, you will have no influence on my belief in Judaism. End of story.

    You will continue to interpret scripture as you choose to and have been taught to. I will continue to study scripture from my point of view. I have seen disgusting acts of bigotry on behalf of people of all faiths, so our exchanges here have not really changed my opinion of Christianity.

    My opinion of proselytizers has not improved.

    Thanks, and goodbye again assuming your stop stalking me,

    PFnV
     
  9. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    PFIV: "As you say, it is a good thing for you, as a Christian, to know that some Muslim, Buddhist, or other non-Christian cannot walk up and say "If you're really Christian you should believe in [Mohammad, the Buddha, etc.]"

    of course they can. Why cant they? And I can politely say, "no, thanks"

    I dont have to go into a disturbed tirade over how offensive they are being to me and my ancestors. Not unless I dont know who I am and what I believe.
     
  10. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let's have a look at that last paragraph:

    "I don't have to go into a disturbed tirade..."
    The definition of "disturbed tirade," clearly, will differ for each individual. Some may read your harassment of a grieving fiance of a murder victim "disturbed," while others may not. Some may read my own historically and culturally aware posts as a "disturbed tirade," based on the assertion that awareness of history is inherently duplicitous. I maintain it is not.

    Since subjectivity clouds either of us from determining what objectively constitutes a "disturbed tirade," the reader must decide. If s/he sees any of your own work as a disturbed tirade, the conclusion can only be that, while it is perfectly true that you don't have to go into such a tirade, you simply choose to.

    ..over how offensive they are being to me and my ancestors." ...Your recent cries of anti-Christian bias notwithstanding (although you are curiously dismissive of anti-Semitism, both historical and present-day.)

    Not unless I dont know who I am and what I believe. Well put. If you've engaged in "disturbed tirades," it's quite likely that such an identity crisis is at least a partial cause. Since you do not see your behavior as involving "disturbed tirades," you take what you've written in this last post at face value.

    Any who view your behavior otherwise, on the other hand, will probably see this as an example of projection -- particularly if they believe psychology to be something that's best practiced without much knowledge of or reading in the subject. I'm sorry, have I misread you again? Are you in fact a licensed psychologist?

    This latest habit of ascribing psychological flaws to your opponents is tantamount to an admission of failure on the grounds of discussion alone. It is also groundless. Finally, these stones are thrown from within what appears to the layman to be the glassiest of houses.

    PFnV
     
  11. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    pretty funny coming from a guy who spends most of his time when responding to me totally telling me all about my history with Judaism and Christianity. You love to dish it out, but when it comes back to you, you cant take it.

    you throw up your hands and cry "i'll see what the board has to say about this" like some daddy is going to intervene and protect you. hmmm, is Schmessy your Daddy?

    we're all adults now and we dont need to look any further than God to be our protector and champion. Perhaps you and Schmessy can look deep into your faiths and actually count on God to be your standard bearer instead of freaking out when someone mentions Jesus Christ to you.

    look around the website. there are people with thick skin withstanding lots of abuse from each other. I posted a link a while back offering some Scriptural reasoning for Jews to Accept Christ. I didnt tell anyone they had to. I offered some reasoning. And you were so unraveled by it you went on the attack. Because you have a thin skin. Or you are insecure.
    You came after me personally first. Go back to "early days" of the Old Testament thread. So just remember that when you cry foul because you didnt think id call you on it.

    Dont want Jesus? Dont accept Him. But dont disrespect Him, Christiantity, or me in the process and expect to not have a discussion on your hands.
     
  12. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let's have a look at how empty the quote is without the "you [this] you [that]" balderdash. Take away the namecalling, and I see a remaining cliche, the "dish it out, but can't take it" charge. Oh, that, and possibly an issue with an absentee or abusive parent -- to once again invoke the spurious practice of amateur psychoanalysis ;)

    Basically, since the point at which I have refused to discuss your religious theories, or my own religious convictions with you, you have taken to a pretty consistent stream of invective. I imagine in your world this is either what you are religiously commanded to do, or this is what you are justified in doing. Or, this is something separate and apart from religion.

    Some forums have rules against such a pure ad hominem campaign, but evidently, Patsfans.com does not have or enforce such a rule. That's fine as well. I certainly am not in any way embarassed that I asked the board what the status of your posts are vis a vis harassment and ad hom attacks, since they are rife with both.

    Ah, the argument from triumphal freedom from persecution! Almost as effective as your other discernible argument of late, the argument from all other arguments being persecution! By the way, Shmessy's not a mod on this board. He's over in the football area.

    As I recall, I described your argument as anti-Semitic. Your argument was, in fact, anti-Semitic. I won't deny having dipped into the mud on occasion -- just to save the hassle of seeing something that actually was directed at you (rather than at one of your arguments, a description of the notion of free speech, etc.,) -- dragged out and paraded around. I am sure you can dig far enough to find an instance in which I've descended into that muck.

    You, however, seem to live there. Your stock in trade is ad hominem attacks, once your religious soapbox is removed.

    Ah, the Holy Trinity revisited: Jesus, Christianity, and 3toB? I harbor no dislike of the historical Jesus, as best as I can make him out, nor with the figure presented as Jesus by the writers of the Christian bible (never mind your own interpretations). I do not see Pauline Christianity as inherently evil either, nor do I say it is. I do say that the seeds of anti-Semitism are available therein, though many Christians choose not to grasp at this potential in the Christian scriptures. Others, quite obviously, do.

    So although the tools for anti-Semitism are all assembled for easy use by a Christian so disposed, there are obviously many examples of Christians who do not see anti-Semitism as a cornerstone of their Christianity.

    Is that historical fact "anti-Christian?"

    Does the gospel not have the Jews proclaim, "let the guilt for this be upon us, and upon our children?" Have Christian anti-Semites not initiated countless pogroms in the past using the absurd charge of deicide, as their justification?

    You consistently portray the notion of explication by way of empirical fact as the equivalent of ad-hominem rants.

    It's fine by me that the board doesn't have a policy on ad-hominem attacks. The mature mind does. Hate is no substitute for reason, 3, and established historical fact is not hate. Finally, a manufactured claim to being persecuted here is not a "Get out of paradox free" card -- however imitative and weak that claim may be.

    I don't spend much time at all on your history as an apostate, 3. That came from you. I do tell you that your "insights" are not germane to my own experience, as a non-apostate Jew. This is one reason I've asked repeatedly that you stop stalking me on these religious matters.

    Well, the local policy does not stop harassment of the type you practice. This allows two reactions on my part: run off and leave you rambling to and fro, or sticking around and speaking reason to your din of hate.

    It may not be as loud or as bombastic, and I certainly won't drag the Almighty in on my side, since in such an exchange at least one and probably both participants are blaspheming. Your certainty of God's mind allows you to do so; you may see my doubt as personal weakness on my part. I see it as proper respect for God's vastness.

    I'll make do with reason, thanks. It should be sufficient to further expose your character and agenda. There's no real need to take pot shots at you, as you do at me. You show your character with every post, and show to the world the product of your interpretation of Christianity with every word and act.

    I'll close with a plea on behalf of Christians who do not see the world through 3's interpretive filter. First of all, they do exist, and probably constitute the majority of Christians I've ever known. Secondly, it would be unfair to them, to have their faith discounted because of the actions of a few zealous proselytizers here. I'm aware of that fact, and I hope nobody else discounts the good and respectful people of any faith, because of the intellectual bankruptcy of one or two individuals who espouse an interpretation of that faith.

    Thanks,

    PFnV
     
  13. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    im sure all these greast Christians you've known would enjoy hearing what you say about Christianity. Are these like all the Orthodox Jews you talked to about me?

    You keep making these comments about the Boards policy and what Patsfan.com allows etc etc like im the most heinous person in there is. its pretty funny, and im so flattered you think im so threatening. I like that word "stalking" to. like im ringing your doorbell or something. or parking in front of your house. its a chat room. dont be afraid. It'll be ok.

    You freely admitted in your post that you responded to my first Old Testament link by accusing me of Anti-Semitism. thank you, you confirmed what i said. You threw out the first attack. Because. that link, was HARDLY anti-semitism. It was a scriptural arguement. It is people like you that dilute what anti-semitism actually is. its the cry wolf mentality. everything is abuse. everything is offensive.

    If I call you a child molester and its not true, did you attack me or did i attack you? Unless I can show that you molest kids, I would be the attacker.

    My link did not call for the destruction, persecution, or restricted rights of Jewish people. It wasnt even a demand that they believe in Jesus, and there wasnt a demand that a Jew had to read the link itself. And if a Jewish person went on to accept Jesus, it wouldnt be a loss for the roll call of Judaism, that person would not be leaving Judaism, the link was establishing that they were merely practicing it. A different interpretation as yours.

    that is NOT anti-semitism. You calling me that is a baseless attack.

    you do not agree. well, i dont think a person that cant talk about His God is half the Jew I am. Just my opinion. And I have a right to it.
     
  14. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First of all, once again (and I'll tell you this until you show a glimmering of understanding of it,) nobody here is afraid of you. Speaking for myself: I am annoyed by you.

    Secondly, and this is another repeat, but as long as you continue to lie, I must continue to counter the lie: I can discuss my faith with you. I choose not to. You neither have standing to discuss my faith, nor are you capable of a discussion on religion that does not serve to denigrate any faith other than Christianity. Attempts to goad me into your accomplice in disparaging Judaism are bound to fail (as in, the predictable "you cannot keep every commandment, therefore you need Jesus" tact.)

    As for your antisemitism: You started a thread specifically singling out Jews for your uninvited and unwanted attentions, and proceeded to explain how you and other Christians (not Jews, although once again, I know you are Jewish "by birth,") best know how Jews should practice Judaism. You further attempt to force a conversation that is unwanted and uninvited, and continue to have the conversation in the absence of a debate opponent, regarding the insufficiency of Judaism. It may be important in your replacement theology for Judaism to be defamed; that does not mean it is not anti-Semitic.

    You have called for the destruction of Jewish worship, by your insistence on the "superiority" or necessity of Christianity as the only legitimate fulfillment of Judaism, and established a thread targeted at Jews in which to disseminate this point of view. Your actions and your arguments are, in fact, anti-Semitic. As has been pointed out, they are the same actions and arguments that, under different conditions, historically have produced not your internet flame-barrages, but actual pogroms.

    Your behavior speaks for itself. I understand your point of view that awareness and recognition of your anti-Semitic proselytizing habits constitute "crying wolf." I do disagree.

    In my own viewpoint, your "Christian-hating here" thread is a far more lucid example of the "crying wolf" phenomenon, particularly when "Christian-hating" turns out to include, among other offenses, "Kansas-bashing." Not that it is good to bash Kansas -- but they are not the same thing.

    If you are honest with yourself, you recognize that you began this claim of "Christian-hating" as a "me-too" response to reactions against your own anti-Semitism. "I know you are but what am I," as it were.

    I'm not sure anyone in his right mind could watch your behavior over the course of this discussion, and come to the conclusion that your arguments and slurs express no animus against the people of your birth.

    I am fairly certain that reasonable men and women could read my own posts, and conclude that I have no special hatred for Christians.

    Perhaps I am flattering myself; perhaps I've followed you down that path, despite my attempts to avoid it. If so, the reader will be able to recognize that.

    If not, regardless of our readers' reactions to my own putative vitriol, your behavior and arguments speak for themselves. Even when advised multiple times to cease and desist from targeting a given group or person with your uninvited attentions, you continue.

    It is not really terribly frightening. It is just plain annoying.

    I suppose you've had a good night now, and are on for the duration.

    Enjoy!

    PFnV
     
  15. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    it rings hollow. If you were simply annoyed, you wouldnt have responded so often with such hostility.

    once again, you have most of "the readers" on your side to start with simply because this is a mostly New England based website, and most people dont believe in Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life. So i really am not concerned with this as a popularity contest. It would be like you being the guest speaker at my church and afterwards me debunking everything you said because, well, most of the people here dont agree with you.

    Its irrelevant what most of "the readers" here think. If they dont agree with me it doesnt change the truth.

    You dont speak of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to win popularity contests. You speak it because its the truth and because of the people who are called to believe.

    a few dissenters on a website dont prove that what ive shared about Christ wasnt accepted or at least listened to. Schmessy will get all crazed about his salesman training experience but the facts are the facts. people know what my music videos are all about, they know what they are getting when they see a thread called "Please Read this if you need Jesus" and "Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus" and the numbers dont lie.
    people who dont post replies are looking at it everyday.

    You are right when you say they look at threads like this because its fun to watch a ****fight. But it just doesnt make sense in the case of the music videos, and the other 2 threads were its plain what its about.


    my actions are not anti-semitic in any way and if they were, if one really did stumble upon an act of anti-semitism, I would think a normal person, especially a Jew, would be a little more than annoyed.
     
  16. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    3tobe4 wrote: "I have justification by Faith, while you are hung up on your works and your deeds. The trouble is, as scripture is very clear about, both Old and New, both Hebrew and Christian, is that if you are going to live by your works and your deeds, it'll never be enough unless you are perfect. And we know thats not possible.

    So you could prove be the greatest guy in the world, and you could do all you could to prove that im "not a very pretty self portrait". Yet, the bottom line is, It doesnt matter in Gods eyes because you have rejected His Son. Where you are judged by the Law, I am freed from the bondage of sin and I am forgiven for my trespasses. "
    _______________________________-

    "I have justification by Faith, while you are hung up on your works and your deeds."

    I'm floored that you actually wrote that. I am impressed with your moment of clarity and true honesty there.

    I'm beginning to understand that the meaning of the name "3tobe4" may not be tied to the Patriots' championship hopes. Ironically it pertains to the number of the 10 Commandments you evidently feel are important (perhaps, you're thinking of working on a 4th).

    That was a direct quote, above, from your previous post: "I have justification by Faith, while you are hung up on your works and your deeds." Do you REALLY believe that merely quoting scripture and having faith gives you the automatic ticket to heaven despite how you interact with the creatures that God made in his own image?

    Question to you: Don't you think all 10 Commandments should be followed? Why just the first 3? Those of us who are "hung up on our works and deeds" are remembering the other 7 Commandments count also.

    You continue to declare that God is not in PFiV's and my lives. At no point did either of us say that. In fact, I have written many times that God IS very much in my life. So are human beings.

    Since humankind is created in God's image, one's works and deeds in this life and ARE important. You wrote: "I have justification by Faith, while you are hung up on your works and your deeds." The Lord knows I'm not perfect. But I work everyday for God AND my fellow man. One without the other is not the complete picture. Memorizing scripture and having a relationship with God at the exclusion of humans is not the whole enchilada in my opinion. Perhaps it is in yours (along with those who memorize Torah but cheat their fellow man, or memorize the Quran but strap explosives to teenage boys).

    Scripture is the road map. But if you don't actually drive the car, you can't get there from here.

    I pity you. You are trying to take the shortcut, scribble the Cliff's notes, trying to skirt by. It ain't that easy. You can't just follow the first 3 Commandments and then say you have fulfilled God's wishes. Deeds and works with one's fellow man in this lifetime are just as important. Having faith in God while not taking responsibility for your own actions towards what he created IN HIS OWN IMAGE is a desecration of God.

    You have some work to do.
     
  17. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    is there a reason you posted the exact same thing in 2 different threads??

    in any case, i'll copy and paste my reply:

    You just took a ridiculous giant leap.

    I said : "I have justification by Faith, while you are hung up on your works and your deeds."

    I didnt say : I have justification by Faith, so I have absolutely no need to do any good works or deeds.

    try reading and not adding to what people have said. if i had said the second one, your point would have made some sense. But i didnt say it, so you just wasted a lot your own time.

    the second part of my quote meant, not that works and deeds arent important, but that YOU feel its the be all and end all to faith and salvation.

    its not.

    I am glad that God is very much a part of your life. You made a big stink earlier of saying it was personal and you werent going to discuss it.

    i have no idea where you get this that i dont think the last 7 commanments are important, although its probably linked to you thinking I said works and good deeds mean nothing to me. So its another wasted point.

    I posed a first commandment question weeks ago that you and PFIV never answered, about placing God first in your life. So i thought it interesting you were bringing the commandments up now.

    in any case, i hope i cleared up for you what i actually said in that quote.
     
  18. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Exactly WHAT was it that made you think that I don't believe in God, when I stated that my relationship with God is personal?

    Bill Gates doesn't run around bragging about how rich he is, but Donald Trump does. It doesn't mean that Bill Gates is the one who declared bankruptcy twice in the past 18 years.
     
  19. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Im glad to hear it then. Up until now its been very underplayed. And when i asked that first commandment question both you and PFIV wouldnt address it.

    Im glad you believe in him. If you care to, whats that mean to you? And if you dont care, thats fine to. Its just a question, not an "interrrogation"
     
  20. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    While there is MUCH which I disagree with regarding the writer Thomas Carlyle, I do like this quote from him in this context.

    “Under all speech that is good for anything there lies a silence that is better. Silence is deep as Eternity; speech is shallow as Time.”

    It's personal, deep and too sacred for me to put into mere words. Thank you.
     

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