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PatsFanInVa

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3 to be 4 said:
You denying it would be, at best, disingenuous.
Whichever interpretation is closest to Absolute Truth of all the interpretations of the Divine floating around this board, I think we can agree that He/She/It appreciates when we can learn.

You've seen my reply on these subjects in the Proselytizing thread, so there's no need to re-answer here. But hell, if nothing else we're enriching one anothers' vocabulary.

PFnV
 

3 to be 4

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
PatsFanInVa said:
Whichever interpretation is closest to Absolute Truth of all the interpretations of the Divine floating around this board, I think we can agree that He/She/It appreciates when we can learn.

You've seen my reply on these subjects in the Proselytizing thread, so there's no need to re-answer here. But hell, if nothing else we're enriching one anothers' vocabulary.

PFnV
Im actually glad the discourse has improved over the last few days, theres has been more dialogue and informing and listening and I think each one of us has been a part of the improvement. For that, I am appreciative.

btw, as I am writing, I have the celebration going on in the Superdome on in the background. talk about a miraculous occurance. I truly believe God is there to make horrible situations better. Im sure all our thoughts continue to go out to that community and I sure wish the Saints well tonight, no city deserves a little bit of joy than the people of New Orleans.
 

CPF

Practice Squad Player
Hey PFiV, sorry I have taken so long to respond, I got a bit busy.

PatsFanInVa said:
Yep, I remember that. I don't find the parallels you see in the statements, other than superficial parallels of phrasing. My statement did not touch on an unverified and unverifiable hypothesis.
Really? I see direct parallels. You told me that my opinion regarding Judaism was basically irrelevant because I was not Jewish. I told you that your opinion regarding Christ was likewise irrelevant because He was your Messiah whether you recognized Him or not. How do you not see a parallel there?

And no, I do not want to engage in the disputation you've invited me to, thanks. My whole point of view throughout this exercise has been that, as a Jew, I certainly have as much right to my beliefs as you have right to your own. That goes for you, too. Challenge your beliefs, do not challenge your beliefs, I don't care. They are your beliefs, and yours to challenge or not to. I have very little standing to challenge your beliefs. You have no standing to challenge mine. On this, by our actions, you, my, and 3 have all agreed over the course of all these posts.
No you would much rather throw out your comments completely uncontested, it’s far easier to win an argument that way. You just want to take unsubstantiated potshots at Christianity and then cry “proselytizing!” whenever anyone tries to call you on them or have a discussion regarding the Hebrew Scriptures as they apply to those who have engaged in the Mosaic Covenant. You talk an awful lot for a guy that doesn’t want to talk.

I thank you for the invitation, which was a polite touch. I do believe proselytizers would be well served by some common sense good manners such as you've shown in this last post.

PFnV
Your welcome, and in the future I would appreciate if you would lay off calling the Christian faith an “unverified and unverifiable hypothesis”, unless of course you would be willing to back up your statement with some hard evidence and maybe stand by for a bit of rebuttal on my part, otherwise I find your comments unprofitable and offensive. Take care, CPF
 
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CPF

Practice Squad Player
shmessy said:
The only thing similar is the "end of story" shtick. He wasn't telling you that you are JEWISH, was he? You are comparing apples and oranges. He was stating something that YOU yourself proudly state. You are Christian. You, in your quote on the other hand, were projecting Jesus onto someone else who does not want that projected onto him and has made that clear in the past.
Shmessy, I honestly don't know why you feel the need to offer your two cents here, as far as I am concerned the exchange was between myself and PFiV. But since you must inject yourself…..PFiV was not simply stating that I was a Christian, he was telling me that my opinions regarding Judaism where completely irrelevant because I was not Jewish. I thought that was pretty clear to anyone who read the post but evidently I was wrong.

PFiV respected you by acknowledging that which you want to call yourself. You, however, could not act in kind. You do not hear him, close your eyes to anything he says and them slap your own label on his head punctuated with "end of story". That is the DEFINITION of "Intolerance". But that shouldn't upset you any, because "Tolerance" of others isn't a goal of fundamentalists.
How is it respecting someone to tell them that their thoughts and opinions are irrelevant because they don’t happen to be Jewish? Anyone who can read can study Judaism not just the Jew, now if he were referring to the social and cultural experience of being Jewish that would be completely different, but that is not what the conversation was about. You preach “tolerance†all of the time but you are real quick to be intolerant of anything an Evangelical has to say. Do I have a right to my own opinion or does it have to be approved by you first? You use this tactic of being just smarmy enough to upset your opponent and cause him/her to say something they will later regret, then you use that to devalue anything they have to say in future exchanges. Well you keep right on using your transparent tactic if you like but I’m here to tell you, this fish ain’t biting my friend.

And you wonder why so many people, Jews, Christians and others have such a negative reaction to fundamentalist evangelical proselytizing?

Meanwhile, it's kind of funny that you think the two quotes are similar because they both have "end of story" after them.
What’s “kind of funny†is that you didn’t see the direct parallel because of your anti-evangelical bias, or is it sad…..I haven’t decided yet, I’ll let you know. Meanwhile, I’m off to cause “negative reactions†far and wide because after all….that’s what us fundies do best right? Take care, CPF.
 

PatsFanInVa

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CPF, you gave an example of an objective fact (that G.W. Bush is president) as parallel to a subjective conclusion (your hypothesis regarding Jesus.)

That you do not acknowledge the difference does not in any way enhance your stature in my eyes.

I do still refuse to be baited into a discussion that furthers your ends of proselytizing here, regardless of how frustrating that is to you.

I do still refuse to acknowledge your claim to have standing to tell me what Judaism is or should be, given the fact that you are not Jewish. The fact that you do not know the difference between objective fact and subjective hypothesis does not further qualify you for such a task by any means.

It is quite obvious that you would be happiest with Jews no longer existing as Jews, since the goal of the proselytizer is the conversion of others to his belief. So, your interest in defaming Judaism and Jews' current or ancient practice thereof, does reek of an ulterior motive.

You must think I'm an idiot, that I would further your ends by inviting you to explain what you think of Judaism.

I, by contrast, prefer Jews to choose how they practice Judaism, rather than Christians explaining how they should practice Judaism.

To this end I have explained to you and others here repeatedly that I do not have any need for your uninvited and unwanted attentions, regarding proselytizing.

Let me re-issue and clarify this: Do not stalk me, trying to worm your way into a religious disputation. Do not attempt to engage me in one. Your complaints and rhetorical flourishes are useless; stalking is stalking, and if it continues, I will request the board take action.

Feel free to discuss your pet theories of how Christians must be free to convert Jews or else they are being oppressed, elsewhere. Feel free to tell someone else you're being held down by "the man" if even one individual refuses to engage in your charade.

Most of all, if it is also important to you, feel free to practice your own religion, as opposed to practicing the spread of your own religion, as you see fit.

But don't come around me spoiling for a medieval disputation. It's not going to happen.

"By their fruits you shall know them," as your bible tells you. It is by your insistence and rudeness, and by your habit of engaging on false pretexts, that I know you and the other proselytizers here.

I do know Christians of another sort, though I do not insist you practice their interpretation of Christianity. I will mention to you the fact that they are much more capable of dialog with Jews and others who are sick of proselytizers. If you really give two figs about dialog, you may want to study their approach.

Despite the evidence of "persecution envy" you're displaying, nobody is spitting on you or mocking you. They're just taking away your toy, by refusing to be goaded into the absurd spectacle you insist is your right.

Try to survive without it, at least as regards me. Since this debate seems to be as essential to you as the air you breathe, consider the amphibian, which, when deprived of oxygen from one source, evolved a means to extract it elsewhere. Perhaps for you there is moral or ethical value in Christianity, besides your interpretation that you are ordered to spread the religion, even to those who reject it. If that too is part of Christianity to you, perhaps it could be another source of nourishment to replace whatever you extract by way of conflict with others over theirs (and in particular, Jews.)

Be that as it may, I repeat:

Do not stalk me insisting on your right to harass me regarding my religious beliefs. Your religion is not a license to stalk, and I will not read as such. I do not know this board's policy, but we're getting very close to finding out.

Thanks,

PFnV
 

Clonamery

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PatsFanInVa said:
Your religion is not a license to stalk, and I will not read as such. I do not know this board's policy, but we're getting very close to finding out.

Thanks,

PFnV
Cult-like it seems....
 

shmessy

Northern VA/Retired
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CPF said:
Shmessy, I honestly don't know why you feel the need to offer your two cents here, as far as I am concerned the exchange was between myself and PFiV. But since you must inject yourself….. CPF.
My bad. If your intention was truly to exchange only with PFiV, then there is a really great feature of this board - - it's called PRIVATE MESSAGING. It's real cool. It's real easy to use and would be very effective for your above stated goal.

Otherwise, any post on the board is considered for everyone.

Your being bothered by my "intrusion" is like two people making love in the middle of a crowded subway car and resenting the gawkers. If you don't like it - - - get a room!
 

3 to be 4

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
so much for the improved discourse.

"I, by contrast, prefer Jews to choose how they practice Judaism, rather than Christians explaining how they should practice Judaism. "

to be fair, in CPF's last post, it seemed he was asking you not to accuse him of things rather than spending any time telling you what to do,think, or believe. There does seem to be a pattern of when confronted with something, you scream out accusations, this time, its "stalking". Kind of melodramatic dont you think?

Hey, again, its ok if you dont want to believe. You certainly dont have to and you dont have to take this all so seriously. Its just a message board. I certainly had to learn that lesson as ive had my share of stuff thrown my way.

Go in peace, brothers, (and sisters), and have a peaceful day.
 

3 to be 4

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Clonamery said:
Depends which side of the 'stalk' you're on......
this can very be true. I guess we all should learn to be careful not to inflame these discussions with accusations in the place of reasonable thought out answers.

by saying all, i mean all, myself included.

Have a great day everyone
 

shmessy

Northern VA/Retired
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3 to be 4 said:
so much for the improved discourse.

"I, by contrast, prefer Jews to choose how they practice Judaism, rather than Christians explaining how they should practice Judaism. "

to be fair, in CPF's last post, it seemed he was asking you not to accuse him of things rather than spending any time telling you what to do,think, or believe. There does seem to be a pattern of when confronted with something, you scream out accusations, this time, its "stalking". Kind of melodramatic dont you think?

Hey, again, its ok if you dont want to believe. You certainly dont have to and you dont have to take this all so seriously. Its just a message board. I certainly had to learn that lesson as ive had my share of stuff thrown my way.

Go in peace, brothers, (and sisters), and have a peaceful day.
Just an aside here 3, it is considered common internet website etiquette to identify whom it is you are quoting. I know you don't mean anything bad by forgetting to attribute, but it would be appreciated.

Thanks.
 

shmessy

Northern VA/Retired
PatsFans.com Supporter
CPF wrote: "Do I have a right to my own opinion or does it have to be approved by you first?"

_____________

Pardon me, but your quote in question here was "....... by the way JESUS LOVES YOU AND HE IS YOUR MESSIAH WHETHER YOU RECOGNIZE HIM OR NOT End of story."

Please tell me what part of that message are we to take as you saying it's your "opinion" and what part are we to take as you saying a certain fact?

Most reasonable people don't state their "opinions" with '....whether you like it or not. End of story'.

And when you do use "he is your messiah whether you recognize him or not. End of story" it is the height of arrogant hypocracy to expect others to meekly cower and accept your "teachings".
 

3 to be 4

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
shmessy said:
Just an aside here 3, it is considered common internet website etiquette to identify whom it is you are quoting. I know you don't mean anything bad by forgetting to attribute, but it would be appreciated.

Thanks.
good point. ashamed to say i havent figured out yet how you guys copy a portion of a post. i just hit the quote thing at the bottom and it copies the whole thing. But if you can tell me how to just do a portion i'll be glad to in the future.
much obliged :)
 

shmessy

Northern VA/Retired
PatsFans.com Supporter
3 to be 4 said:
good point. ashamed to say i havent figured out yet how you guys copy a portion of a post. i just hit the quote thing at the bottom and it copies the whole thing. But if you can tell me how to just do a portion i'll be glad to in the future.
much obliged :)
No prob, 3. When you hit quote and it opens a new window, you can actually edit the quote. You can go into it and delete out the parts that are irrelevant to your reply.

(I know there's a joke in there somewhere concerning my last sentence, but I'm too harried right now to even try.)
 

CPF

Practice Squad Player
PFiV: CPF, you gave an example of an objective fact (that G.W. Bush is president) as parallel to a subjective conclusion (your hypothesis regarding Jesus.)
No, I gave you an example of a subjective conclusion (That any opinion I offer regarding Judaism is irrelevant because I am not a Jew) as a parallel to another subjective conclusion (Jesus is in fact your long awaited Messiah)

That you do not acknowledge the difference does not in any way enhance your stature in my eyes.
That you can’t see the similarities is quite frankly baffling to me.

I do still refuse to be baited into a discussion that furthers your ends of proselytizing here, regardless of how frustrating that is to you.
Oh, I’m not frustrated, you don’t want to talk then simply stop typing.

I do still refuse to acknowledge your claim to have standing to tell me what Judaism is or should be, given the fact that you are not Jewish. The fact that you do not know the difference between objective fact and subjective hypothesis does not further qualify you for such a task by any means.
Again I do not have to be Jewish to read and understand the Mosaic Covenant as it is described in the Hebrew Scriptures. I was not telling you what Judaism is or should be, I was telling you what I feel the Bible has to say regarding what it is or should be. I already told you how I felt about your “objective facts†above.

It is quite obvious that you would be happiest with Jews no longer existing as Jews, since the goal of the proselytizer is the conversion of others to his belief. So, your interest in defaming Judaism and Jews' current or ancient practice thereof, does reek of an ulterior motive.
I haven’t “defamed†anything, I have simply pointed out things the Scriptures are explicit about regarding the Mosaic Covenant and asked you how they relate to the way you operate within your practice of Judaism. Of course I would love to see everyone accept Jesus as their Savior because I truly believe with all of my heart that apart from Him there is no salvation, but I can’t force anyone to accept my belief system. I can however engage others in discussion regarding differing worldviews and offer reasons why I feel mine is the most reasonable, I really don’t see the problem that you do in that but…to each his own.

You must think I'm an idiot, that I would further your ends by inviting you to explain what you think of Judaism.
Actually I invited you to an open exchange of views where we would both have equal time to explain our points of view and offer rebuttal where we differed. I honestly don’t know what you are so afraid of, you seem to be pretty confident of your position and worldview and at the same time you seem pretty sure that the basic tenets of Christianity are “unverified and unverifiable hypothesis†so you should be able to handle any arguments I may have to offer with relative ease, right?

I, by contrast, prefer Jews to choose how they practice Judaism, rather than Christians explaining how they should practice Judaism.
Actually I was pointing out what the Scriptures (remember those?) have to say about the practice of Judaism, but you keep wanting to overlook that for some reason.

To this end I have explained to you and others here repeatedly that I do not have any need for your uninvited and unwanted attentions, regarding proselytizing.

Let me re-issue and clarify this: Do not stalk me, trying to worm your way into a religious disputation. Do not attempt to engage me in one. Your complaints and rhetorical flourishes are useless; stalking is stalking, and if it continues, I will request the board take action.
Well PFiV, as your good buddy Shmessy informed me; this is a public forum and therefore anything written in it is….well….open to the public, if you want to stop talking to me then simply stop typing replies with my address on them and that should pretty well take care of your little problem. Also, you really need to crank down a bit on the melodramatics, all of this stalking talk is getting embarrassingly ridiculous.

Feel free to discuss your pet theories of how Christians must be free to convert Jews or else they are being oppressed, elsewhere. Feel free to tell someone else you're being held down by "the man" if even one individual refuses to engage in your charade.
So, you mean if I simply started a general thread addressed to nobody in particular regarding my beliefs about Christianity and Judaism and…..heck…anything else I want to just put out there, you wouldn’t chime in with your opinion, or accuse me of offending you by proselytizing?

Most of all, if it is also important to you, feel free to practice your own religion, as opposed to practicing the spread of your own religion, as you see fit.
Are you trying to tell me how a Christian should conduct themselves…..uh hello….it doesn’t matter what a Christian should be to you, you’re a Jew, End of Story. Does that sound familiar? Yeah, it gave me the same warm fuzzy feeling that it probably gave you….enjoy.

But don't come around me spoiling for a medieval disputation. It's not going to happen.
Medieval disputation? LOL! Where do you come up with this stuff, it took me five minutes to clear the tears from my eyes from laughing so I could see the monitor well enough to continue. Don’t worry I’ll stop “stalking “ you and by the way, you can help me by simply not responding to anything I have to say.

"By their fruits you shall know them," as your bible tells you. It is by your insistence and rudeness, and by your habit of engaging on false pretexts, that I know you and the other proselytizers here.
Uh hello….pot….yeah, kettle here……say, who you calling black? Give me a huge break would you LOL! You might want to "take the log from your own eye before you attempt to remove the speck from mine", thank you very much.

I do know Christians of another sort, though I do not insist you practice their interpretation of Christianity. I will mention to you the fact that they are much more capable of dialog with Jews and others who are sick of proselytizers. If you really give two figs about dialog, you may want to study their approach.
Study who’s approach? These ambiguous Christians you claim to have contact with?

Despite the evidence of "persecution envy" you're displaying, nobody is spitting on you or mocking you. They're just taking away your toy, by refusing to be goaded into the absurd spectacle you insist is your right.
No, everybody is just pleasant as punch toward 3toB and myself, why it’s a veritable wonderland of tolerance and kindness. Tell me; what posts have you been reading?

Try to survive without it, at least as regards me. Since this debate seems to be as essential to you as the air you breathe, consider the amphibian, which, when deprived of oxygen from one source, evolved a means to extract it elsewhere.
Come on now silly, you know I don’t buy that evolution stuff;)

Perhaps for you there is moral or ethical value in Christianity, besides your interpretation that you are ordered to spread the religion, even to those who reject it. If that too is part of Christianity to you, perhaps it could be another source of nourishment to replace whatever you extract by way of conflict with others over theirs (and in particular, Jews.)

Be that as it may, I repeat: Do not stalk me insisting on your right to harass me regarding my religious beliefs. Your religion is not a license to stalk, and I will not read as such. I do not know this board's policy, but we're getting very close to finding out.
Actually I enjoy dialogue with many different worldviews and don’t really focus on any one in particular, I’m just as happy having an exchange with an atheist as I am with an agnostic, Muslim or yes, even a Jew. You see I am not afraid of an open exchange of viewpoints because I have complete faith in my worldview's ability to stand up to scrutiny of all kinds, actually if anything it strengthens my faith to test it against opposition. You obviously don’t feel the same way as I do, so consider our conversation done. Take care, CPF
 

CPF

Practice Squad Player
Hey Shmessy, I would just like to preface my comments with a bit of an aside, you see it is considered common message board discussion etiquette that when a person responds to you in a point by point manner, in which he/she takes the time to address each of the points you have made to them, that you offer the same courtesy in return. Hey, I know you don’t mean anything bad by neglecting to do so but, it would be appreciatedJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPF Shmessy, I honestly don't know why you feel the need to offer your two cents here, as far as I am concerned the exchange was between myself and PFiV. But since you must inject yourself….. CPF.


Shmessy: My bad. If your intention was truly to exchange only with PFiV, then there is a really great feature of this board - - it's called PRIVATE MESSAGING. It's real cool. It's real easy to use and would be very effective for your above stated goal.

Otherwise, any post on the board is considered for everyone.



Your being bothered by my "intrusion" is like two people making love in the middle of a crowded subway car and resenting the gawkers. If you don't like it - - - get a room!
Of course you are right, this is a public forum and you can engage in any conversation you would like, I just thought that since the exchange involved PFiV and myself that we could work it out amongst ourselves.


CPF wrote: "Do I have a right to my own opinion or does it have to be approved by you first?"

Pardon me, but your quote in question here was "....... by the way JESUS LOVES YOU AND HE IS YOUR MESSIAH WHETHER YOU RECOGNIZE HIM OR NOT End of story."

Please tell me what part of that message are we to take as you saying it's your "opinion" and what part are we to take as you saying a certain fact? Most reasonable people don't state their "opinions" with '....whether you like it or not. End of story'
Read my most recent response to PFiV, perhaps that may clear things up a bit for you, if it doesn’t then I guess I can’t help you.

.
And when you do use "he is your messiah whether you recognize him or not. End of story" it is the height of arrogant hypocracy to expect others to meekly cower and accept your "teachings".
I agree, just as it would be equally arrogant to tell someone that their opinions regarding Judaism are irrelevant because they are not a Jew. I don’t expect anybody to simply “cower and accept†the Christian message. That is why it is called a discussion forum…..so we can discuss things, offer rebuttal and opinion, and come to our own conclusions at the end of the day, right? Take care, CPF
 
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