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Tactics endure after 10 years of same-sex marriage

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, May 17, 2014.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/16/10-years-later-gay-marriage-tactics-still-in-use/

    BOSTON (AP) - ...

    Seventeen states and the District of Columbia have legalized same-sex marriage. Judges in seven other states have struck down bans on gay marriage, though officials are appealing.

    Opposition remains stiff in many places. Critics point out that most states still do not allow gay marriage and that in most of those that do, it was the work of courts or legislatures, not the will of the people.

    Only Washington, Maryland and Maine have approved gay marriage through a public vote, while residents of 30 states have approved constitutional amendments to ban it.

    ...

    “I think the notion that it is a freight train of momentum has been greatly exaggerated and is just not true,” says John Eastman, chairman of the National Organization for Marriage.

    ...

    Recent polls show that a majority of Americans support same-sex marriage; in 2004, only about 30 percent favored it. The U.S. Supreme Court last year struck down a key part of a federal law defining marriage as between a man and a woman. Forty percent of Americans now live in states where gay people can marry.

    ....
     
  2. Boogs

    Boogs 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    It probably depends where you live. Liberal states and urban areas are usually gonna have people supporting it. Conservative states and rural areas are gonna have more people against gay marriage. I'd say gay marriage is becoming more favorable at least in media. I listen to various sports talk radio shows. And last week with the Michael Sam thing, every host was supportive of homosexuality. 5-7 years ago, they would not have said the things like that on a sports jock show. Part of that is they may be afraid to lose their job though for saying something different than that.
     
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think those that are against will change much ...
    Kind of like the 30% left and 30% right ... it's too bad really.
    I have 3 gay households in my area ... if you didn't know you wouldn't notice except when it's gay parade time ... they tend to throw parties at their houses but meh ... have a ball ... life life to the fullest.

    I miss my brother in law who dies of aids 6 years ago ... him and his partner would come over and tell gay jokes ... it was hilarious. I was uncomfortable at first and then I realized it's like the n word ... they can tell the jokes ... I can laugh at them not the other way around.
     
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  4. Boogs

    Boogs 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Icy, I would disagree with you. I think it is probably changing even in people that go to church. Based on this. My church hasn't touched the subject from the pulpit for years. So with it being in the news, I would have thought they would address the Bible's view of it because it's in the news so much. I honestly think the pastors might be afraid to touch the subject. I know how they feel privately on the matter from talking to our youth pastor who is close to them. I talk football with him and Michael Sam has come up in our conversation before. And he mentioned our pastors being concerned about the political push for gay marriage. And eventually being forced to marry gays by the courts. So anyway, if people in the church aren't hearing what the Bible says about it on Sunday, then they will get their views from the media. I think it's changing fast but I have no good evidence for you. Just a feeling.
     
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The odd thing about homosexuality is that the human race has largely managed to keep it a secret since the dawn of civilization. From the beginning of time, no doubt, it has existed in every family, so now that it's being talked about, families are forced to contend with it. Family systems generally used social pressure to keep out those they considered undesirable, but that obviously doesn't work when it comes to people in your own family, especially those who you loved before learning they were "different." The big obstacle for the opponents of gay rights is that many of their own families include gay children, parents, or other relatives they love, so that takes the wind out of the opposition. As a result, although gays are a minority, the opposition is splintered, uncomfortable, and unsure, and this is even true in churches where ministers for years have counseled good people who were gay. What I have observed is how successfully many conservatives have walked a tightrope of logic to accept gay rights, while continuing to marginalize other groups. To a large degree, I believe they have only walked this tightrope because to do otherwise would have forced them to reject a loved one.
     
  6. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That would be a kind of dumb fear, wouldn't it? Separation of state and church prevents that. There is no church today which "has" to perform a marriage for anyone. Catholic churches routinely refuse to marry a Catholic to a non-catholic who does not agree to raise their children as Catholic. They do not have to perform marriages for people who are not members of their parish. Jewish rabbis routinely refuse to marry a jew and a non-jew. Divorced people cannot remarry in a Catholic ceremony unless an annullment has been obtained.

    If any church is saying that are afraid they are going to be "forced" to perform gay marriages, they're grossly exaggerating the remotest of possibility.
     
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  7. Boogs

    Boogs 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Patters, can you explain what you mean from "What I have observed" to the end. I'm not understanding. "tightrope of logic to accept gay rights while marginalizing others"
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  8. Boogs

    Boogs 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I think it is very possible Mrs. It's much like the Christian bakery not wanting to bake a wedding cake for the two lesbians. Get the right judge and it could happen.
     
  9. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I Googled reasons people oppose ... I picked this one.
    Personally I disagree with every one of them and IMO none of them individually holds water.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/murray-lipp/the-top-10-arguments-agai_b_3337249.html

     
  10. cupofjoe1962

    cupofjoe1962 In the Starting Line-Up

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    Isn't it kind of wierd that churches don't have to perform gay marriages, but bakeries have to make them a cake?
     
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  11. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Bakeries are not protected by the constitution under the separation of church and state laws.

    No bakery, regardless of what the owners may believe, are ever going to be considered a religious organization.

    Have you heard of any judges demanding that a synagogue marry a jew to a non-jew? Or telling a catholic priest that he must marry a previously divorced Catholic woman to a Catholic man? Or passing a new law that a church must perform a marriage for anyone who is not already a member of their church?

    Get back to me when any one of those things happens, ok?

    Until then, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
     
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  12. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not at all.

    One is a tax exempt religious organization and one is not.
     
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  13. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not at all ... churches are not businesses and they are not taxed.
     
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  14. Boogs

    Boogs 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I actually think it could happen soon. A gay couple will challenge this in court IMO. But we'll see.
     
  15. fpraven88

    fpraven88 In the Starting Line-Up

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    So the bigots in Mass won't have a choice this year, I do suppose.
     
  16. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Maine and Wisconsin only recognize "domestic partnerships" between same sex couples thus the question of a religious group being forced to perform a cermony is moot since no ceremonies are performed and no marriage is being recognized. Forms are filled out and filed. That's it. Both laws specify that a domestic partnership is not a marriage and prohibits the recognition of any status as being even “substantially similar to marriage."

    Those states which are currently considering legalizing same sex marriages all contain religious clauses.

    http://www.billtrack50.com/blog/civil-rights/does-same-sex-marriage-threaten-religious-freedom/
     
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  17. Oinko

    Oinko On the Game Day Roster

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    Think maybe it's a worldwide sweep -- China, Russia, India, the Pacific Rim, Africa, the rest of Europe?

    Or do you think the idea of a marriage meaning a man and woman will have some persistence?
     
  18. RI Patriots fan

    RI Patriots fan Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Why would a conservative need to "reject" a family member if they happen to have homosexual inclinations?

    I'm a Conservative. I wouldn't reject someone because they were gay or lesbian. Whether they were living
    a Catholic/christian lifestyle or not, they would be a family member.

    If a family member were living with someone or divorced and remarried or living a gay lifestyle, I might disagree with their choices but I wouldn't reject the family member.

    BTW Patters, I can tell you as someone who is part of the "opposition", we are not splintered, uncomfortable or unsure. We are very sure in what we believe and there is no doubt whatsoever.
     
  19. Bobsyouruncle

    Bobsyouruncle In the Starting Line-Up

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    That's not what the first amendment says. It says:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

    So if you legally require someone to do something against their religion than you have made a law that is unconstitutional.

    Religious organizations are not mentioned. People have religion, not organizations.

    No, and I think it's an unlikely consequence of gay marriage. Churches have separate criteria for marriage and those don't always agree with state criteria.

    There's a bit of a fallacy that's underlying here that's become very common. The idea we shouldn't discriminate against anybody. It's either lazy thinking or sloppy language because it should be apparent to everyone we discriminate all the time.

    For logical reasons I won't totally get into there is only two choices. Either you can discriminate against everybody, or you can discriminate against nobody. Stores discriminate against people who don't wear shoes, clubs against certain clothes, try renting a plane or a car without a license and there is discrimination. If someone tried to buy a gun or and axe from me and said they plan to use it to kill their wife I would discriminate against them. I probably wouldn't serve a Klansmen, the Broncos discriminated with tickets from people out of town, colleges routinely discriminate out of state applicants. I'm quite sure the Chinese people working in a Chinese restaurant aren't the only applicants, nor the Mexicans at the Mexican restaraunt. The NFL seems quite discriminatory, not one time have they taken my application seriously. Hell, the whole idea of prices is discriminatory, it discriminates against those that can't afford the price. If I own something why should I have to sell it to anybody I don't want? I'll bet a shiny quarter every single person in this forum has preferentially sold something to a friend or relative. Not making it available to all for a standard price makes us discriminatory in your own definition. The idea of going down the path of "nobody can discriminate" is frankly, absurd.
     
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're not who I am talking about. Sure, there are conservatives like you who believe hate the sin love the sinner. There are also conservatives who believe that our right to privacy means the government has no role in the bedroom. But, then you have the conservatives who believe that homosexuality is destroying our nation, is proof of a conspiracy, is corrupting our children, is weakening our men, is threatening the human race, etc. There are quite a few of those people. But, their fever is reduced if they are close to someone who is gay, such as a child or relative.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2014

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