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Vatahala

In the Starting Line-Up
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
I'm wondering about how the blame will be dished out; What if Kraft wanted to fire Steve. would BB threaten to quit? I picture Robert Kraft as Ben Gazarra in Roadhouse speaking to his employees "somebody owes me an apology".
 

JayNM

In the Starting Line-Up
Jay,

Agree with your para on McD....Is the team living too much in the past and it has now caught up with them. Think the questions has to be asked. I do not have the knowledge to argue either way but this should be part of the season review.
This is such a complicated answer, lol. First of all, I have not been as assiduous in the NFL as I once was, so I have to focus more of the internal problems right?

Setting the piece:
Right now we are a Running-driven team. Ok, thats the philosophy. With this being sports after all, makes some sense to against the motion, and i respect the **** out it.

First and foremost, and, basically contradicting myself already but there is no way around it, it does start and its mostly about the personnel (sports and all).

Do we have great TEs? No, we have 1 great guy in Henry, then literally 3 disappointments and 1 extreme Jag behind him. Smith, Asiasi, Keene and LaCosse are what they are now, thats not up to discussion (!for now!).

Our RBs are great. At first. Harris, alright, stud. Rhamondre, as good as he is, still a Rookie. Those two are my formed opinions so far, right? Then Bolden, who CRUSHED my heart against the Bills,as he is... just a ok. Look, I was ALMOST close to changing my mind definitely... but... I cant now.
JJ taylor unfortunately reminds too much of the Problems. To be, its pathetically obvious they hope he is Dion Lewis. He isnt. Its the whole "holding on to legacy" thing again, i guess (and White being here or not doesnt alter those things to me). I know I wished Sony was here this year at some point, instead of a 5th round pick or whatever it was,.

Then we elected to go lighter (and, funnily enough, heavier) with the WRs, with the walking tumour named Nkeal, which, again, personally, feels like they were trying to replace a TE with his bum ass.

That means that we cant really roll with 5 WR sets, which is the norm nowadays. Additionally, our "bunch formations", which is how i call formations where Receveirs group together, like Trips (for sake of reference, this is what i mean, as an example, on where the receivers are set, Trips Left Strong 43 Delay | Youth Football Plays and Formations | Football formations, Peewee football, Football drills ) are EXTREMELY limited due to this personnel choice.

This means that, if the defense goes heavy on DBs, or better yet, if they focus on stopping the pass, there wont be designly created spaces for the receiver, especially against Man-Coverage, which is practically the norm in today's NFL defenses. The whole McVay/Shannahan reference is exactly how they set their receivers in these formations, either by default or motioning, creating space for the playmaker. This is borderline in our system.

So, in conclusion for this damn essay, a metaphor: we are trying to fit a square piece on a round hole. Awesome stuff, love the challange. But if we dont have the tools to "refine" this square piece... well... we are putting A LOT OF INVESTMENT AND TIME AND EFFORT when we could just go buy a damn round piece
 

Shockt327

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
@ JayNM

Ugh. I cannot stand fans who try and pass themselves off like they know the x's & o's, when it's clear they do not know anything; not even the basics. Don't pass yourself off as something you aren't. You toss around buzz words that you clearly do not understand and its completely obvious. Please stop. Sadly, you won't. So, put-up or shut-up. I'll be more than happy to nit-pick any play, video, illustration you want to bring up regarding what so new and special that NE doesn't do (Hint: NE probably does it too). This will be fun. Show me the video of the play/concept. Show me a drawing. Show me whatever you want. This will be a comedy of errors.
  • Stopped "innovating"? Tell me what this magical "innovation" is? Show me a play? Anything. Show me how it works (you can't). You'll probably dig up some article that throws around vague/broad terms like "RPO" or "Zone Read." That's conveniently avoids specifics.
  • "we need to work in Trips WRs" WHAT!?!?! Are you f'ing kidding me? You think Trips is something special??? I cannot even put into words how utterly laughable this is. But wait. Ok, I'll play along. What's so special or new? What's so new/different about trips in today's game? Draw it up or tell me what's new. (Hint: there actually is somewhat of a minor trend on how teams use trips, but it's very small and you won't know a thing. It's really not "new" either. Another hint: It's based on strong side vs weakside and who aligns where. Oh, and the Patriots have been doing it for well over a decade, before it became a trend.)
  • "when you are facing 6 DBS, and 2 LBs who can cover the whole field" LOL!! In coverage, that's a 3-man-rush. Can you even count? Also, Defenses hardly ever show this personell; let alone rush three. When they do it either 3rd-and-forever or it's a prevent defense. Because, clearly, offenses will run the ball down their throats anytime they see that personnel. Wow, you really lack the common sense it takes a count.
  • "there arent any spaces left in the medium zone, where the EP is optimal." WTF are you even talking about? This has to be your dumbest point yet, which is saying something. Seriously, I have to point out the stupidity on multiple level, here.
    • Buddy, the "system" is just a language. You are actually trying to make it sound like the language dictates the scheme or play-design. Like once the playbook is written, there is no way to add something new. This is laughable.
    • Also, you'd know this is you ever bothered to read playbooks (which woud require an understanding of basic concepts; which you lack). It's overwhelmingly the same stuff, but in a different language.
    • No spaces in medium zone for NE? LOL, Hunter Henry's entire season has been been based on attacking defenses over the middle. Same as Gronk when he was here. Same as Gronk, currently, in Tampa (when Bruce Arians never did this before). You'd have no idea how it works. But feel free to google Jab 144 Ctr Hot, and get back to me. (Hint: Peyton Maninng has mentioned this in discussion with Brady)
    • But ok, I'll play-along, tell me these imaginary passing concepts that open up the "medium zone."

I wanna raise this discussion for you guys. I wanna hear your thoughts on this , and as much as angry as I am with the outcome of the game, Ill try to answer to your bad different reasoning with a peaceful mind

Aight...

We CANT stay with ALL OF OUR COORDINATORS.
Like, outside of football. This is THE CRAZIEST, BIGGEST, MOST FLAGRANT red flags possible. A "cornerstone" of the previous legacy, ailed by the son-of-the-genius-boss. Man. This is a recipe for absolute disaster.

Lets start with McD:

We gotta a Extremely succesful, legacy-setting OC, WHO HAS STOPPED INNOVATING IN YEARS AND HAS CLEARLY FALLEN BEHIND THE CONCEPTS OF THE MODERN GAME, running EVERYTHING on Offense. We are in a McVay/Shannahan-style life on offense, we need to work in Trips WRs, we need to put a lot of people in motion, and we gotta design play to put the ball in our playmakers hands (whoever they are). The fluidity of options given by the EP system is awesome. Its also outdated, when you are facing 6 DBS, and 2 LBs who can cover the whole field, and there arent any spaces left in the medium zone, where the EP is optimal. WE NEED TO CHANGE. Im not even dwelling into play calling, and I will even end on a higher note for Josh: He should be working exclusively with Mac. Good ol' Qb coach, as in the good days. Let the offense look for new blood.

Now...

Steve Bellichick.

There is not a world where I think its okay for this guy to be our DC. If Mayo leaves and he is retained as our top guy, I will be FUMMING. I hate the new forum search*, so Im gonna avoid trying to repeat what I said previously: WHAT DOES HE BRING TO THE TABLE? What capacities has he earned, except by being part of the best well-oiled machine in pro-sports for 20 years, in maybe ever? Stop and think about it. Everything he learned was IN-HOUSE. Does that mean that he isnt qualified? Of course not. BUT HE GREW IN A SYSTEM RUNNED BY HIS ****ING FATHER. Even if we disregard the most obvious, blatant bias that exists in nature (the family-bond), He is a guy who knows exactly what to do to be "well-viewed". Thats the killer of nepotism, he knows, literraly, the annals of whats good and bad, in the eyes of his daddy. Man... I can stress this enough... Ive worked with companies that literally went out of business bc of this

There, this is my rant. Im ready for 2022 season babyyy


*Sorry @Ian , I can never find what i need (and i could on the previous format), although its literally my only problem with it.
 

JayNM

In the Starting Line-Up
@ JayNM

Ugh. I cannot stand fans who try and pass themselves off like they know the x's & o's, when it's clear they do not know anything; not even the basics. Don't pass yourself off as something you aren't. You toss around buzz words that you clearly do not understand and its completely obvious. Please stop. Sadly, you won't. So, put-up or shut-up. I'll be more than happy to nit-pick any play, video, illustration you want to bring up regarding what so new and special that NE doesn't do (Hint: NE probably does it too). This will be fun. Show me the video of the play/concept. Show me a drawing. Show me whatever you want. This will be a comedy of errors.
  • Stopped "innovating"? Tell me what this magical "innovation" is? Show me a play? Anything. Show me how it works (you can't). You'll probably dig up some article that throws around vague/broad terms like "RPO" or "Zone Read." That's conveniently avoids specifics.
  • "we need to work in Trips WRs" WHAT!?!?! Are you f'ing kidding me? You think Trips is something special??? I cannot even put into words how utterly laughable this is. But wait. Ok, I'll play along. What's so special or new? What's so new/different about trips in today's game? Draw it up or tell me what's new. (Hint: there actually is somewhat of a minor trend on how teams use trips, but it's very small and you won't know a thing. It's really not "new" either. Another hint: It's based on strong side vs weakside and who aligns where. Oh, and the Patriots have been doing it for well over a decade, before it became a trend.)
  • "when you are facing 6 DBS, and 2 LBs who can cover the whole field" LOL!! In coverage, that's a 3-man-rush. Can you even count? Also, Defenses hardly ever show this personell; let alone rush three. When they do it either 3rd-and-forever or it's a prevent defense. Because, clearly, offenses will run the ball down their throats anytime they see that personnel. Wow, you really lack the common sense it takes a count.
  • "there arent any spaces left in the medium zone, where the EP is optimal." WTF are you even talking about? This has to be your dumbest point yet, which is saying something. Seriously, I have to point out the stupidity on multiple level, here.
    • Buddy, the "system" is just a language. You are actually trying to make it sound like the language dictates the scheme or play-design. Like once the playbook is written, there is no way to add something new. This is laughable.
    • Also, you'd know this is you ever bothered to read playbooks (which woud require an understanding of basic concepts; which you lack). It's overwhelmingly the same stuff, but in a different language.
    • No spaces in medium zone for NE? LOL, Hunter Henry's entire season has been been based on attacking defenses over the middle. Same as Gronk when he was here. Same as Gronk, currently, in Tampa (when Bruce Arians never did this before). You'd have no idea how it works. But feel free to google Jab 144 Ctr Hot, and get back to me. (Hint: Peyton Maninng has mentioned this in discussion with Brady)
    • But ok, I'll play-along, tell me these imaginary passing concepts that open up the "medium zone."
Dont know who you are, never saw u around, never talked to you

Not the vibe Im having here, on the thread i created.

You can go right off to your hole, pick whatever point thing you can find and....

yeah, you know the rest. bye my dude

EDIT - actually, looking at ur history here

one post what, every 3 months or so. Wow. Most of the abusing and riling it up

Yeah, i know the type
 
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BaconGrundleCandy

#1 Mac Jones fan
PatsFans.com Supporter
@JayNM you can't get mad when someone goes after your post. It's a football board and debate will happen. I'm sorry but I read your post the same way.

You gave no real specifics or insight with respect. Just said things, that aren't true.

Like the EP being dated. 1/3 of the league are using it in some form. Same can be said about our scouting system. About 10-12 teams use it in some variation. It's not bc it's outdated.

Also the Pats were in the top half of the league in term motion at the snap throughout most the season I believe. Like 14 in the league around Nov.

It sounds like your problem is with the personnel bc Josh has done a fantastic job at maximizing this current group under a rookie QB. Both had clear ceilings this year and they hit them.

We should want more insight and detail here not less.
 

Toofy

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
I honestly think McD has done a pretty decent job. I just hope he figures out how to use agholor and Jonnu in next season. If we drafted them in wrong phase of career, we just have to suck up and eat those contracts .

We are now like blackberry running on outdated concepts whilst other teams employ newer concepts like iphones and other touch phone. If we do not innovate , we will soon be swept off and relegated .

Belichick is the master of innovating, but yeah we have been slow the past two seasons. Though we reached the playoffs this season, I think we got lucky with our schedule and injuries and weather based advantages.

When the other team limits their mistakes and we start making mistakes , we have nowhere to hide. We got a great 12 games from Judon, dugger and barmore which allowed Jackson to be effective and other cornerbacks to be relatively better. When this trifecta got injured, our Achilles heel our plodding linebackers corp started showing their age and gave more than 5 seconds to QB. Any QB can shred defenses with those times.


I am not really optimistic about next season . I just want them to give chances to young players. Please no hightower, Collins, godchaux, wise, mccourty and van Noy. If we lose with young guns so be it. It's better for them to get game time experience rather than sticking with veterans who are no longer relevant.
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
Yes. Absolutely. In fact, in an organization playing in this uber competitive league, with the amount of money that exists going around, If i was in charge, every year that we dont win a SB, id to do thorough investigation of whats' wrong. I dont think Im crazy here, even if its practically absurd

But I gotta say, I think you are a bit narrow on the perspective. Its not about this loss. There are fundamentally bad seeds growing in Foxborough, and letting them grow (more than already has) is dangerous.

In other words: A house built in bad fundations, dont ever stay fully erect
??

What are the bad seeds?
 

Shockt327

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
That means that we cant really roll with 5 WR sets, which is the norm nowadays. Additionally, our "bunch formations", which is how i call formations where Receveirs group together, like Trips (for sake of reference, this is what i mean, as an example, on where the receivers are set, Trips Left Strong 43 Delay | Youth Football Plays and Formations | Football formations, Peewee football, Football drills ) are EXTREMELY limited due to this personnel choice.

5 Wide Receiver sets? Or just 5 wide formations? Again, you throw around terms you do not understand. You say "personnel choice" so I'll assume you actually want teams to use 5 wide receiver personnel packages.
  • 5 Wide Receiver sets? This is a personnel package. And no team actually uses a 5 WRs at once as it would be a clear indicator, in the huddle, to the opposing D that 1) it won't be a run play. 2) It will only be 5 man protection (i.e. since no HB or TE to block). Also, defense would have no need for LBs. So, You'd be looking at two things...either the D will dial up exotic blitzes (no protection), or just play two deep safties (much harder to throw against) with DBs across the board. This is why you virtually never see 5 wide receiver personnel.
  • Or do you just mean Five Wide? As in "empty" formations. Again empty there is no run threat, but teams use a RB and TE in the personell since where LBs line up will be an easy indicator of man vs zone. Put the RB outside and if a LB is on him, it;s man. IF the LB stays inside, it's zone. NE uses this ALL THE TIME.
Also, the formation you listed below is an UNBALANCED FORMATION! This is just laughable. I bet you never even noticed. Look At the O-Line; two tackles are to the left, the X is right next to the guard. The Pats did this back in 2014 when they called "Baltimore !" & "Raven" and had a TE (Hoo-Man) catch passes despite being lined up in the position of a OT. Harbaugh whined about it.



trips-left-strong-43-delay.jpg
 
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upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
First of all, we need to remember that this is a team and coaching staff that had the GOAT at QB for 19 seasons (actually 18). After last year, they made atypical moves in Free Agency and landed a quality QB in the Draft. They started slow, looked good enough for a while to outperform expectations but had their weaknesses exposed at the end. The last five or six games have shown us that there is no quick fix.

I don't see them getting rid of BB and others on his staff (I just don't see the Krafts doing that).

But I do see them teetering on an edge. On one side is a slower than we'd like rebuild, replacing pieces on the field and sidelines within their cap constraints and being competitive but not dominant for the next two or three years before challenging for championships again. On the other side is a long slide into oblivion, reminiscent of the Steelers after Noll and Bradshaw and the Cowboys after Aikman and Johnson.
How is the rebuild slower?

We are 2 years in and made the playoffs in the 2nd year.

Let's look at the team that blew us out last night. Pretend their rebuild started with Sean McDermott (yes, I'm asking you to forget the previous 30 years). It's McDermott's 5th year as coach.

I'm not saying this is the Patriots trajectory, but I fully expected it would be more than 2 years. And really, more than 3. Belichick's team wasn't fully formed in the first run until 2003. Four years. We didn't even make the playoffs in 2002.
 

JayNM

In the Starting Line-Up
@JayNM you can't get mad when someone goes after your post. It's a football board and debate will happen. I'm sorry but I read your post the same way.

You gave no real specifics or insight with respect. Just said things, that aren't true.

Like the EP being dated. 1/3 of the league are using it in some form. Same can be said about our scouting system. About 10-12 teams use it in some variation. It's not bc it's outdated.

Also the Pats were in the top half of the league in term motion at the snap throughout most the season I believe. Like 14 in the league around Nov.

It sounds like your problem is with the personnel bc Josh has done a fantastic job at maximizing this current group under a rookie QB. Both had clear ceilings this year and they hit them.

We should want more insight and detail here not less.
First of all, if you cant see the difference between ur approach and his, I gotta question your capacity the same way he questioned mine. Why? its not Football X & O fundamentals, its Humanity X & Os fundamentals. I know which comes first.

Now, with respect, no problem answering, in parts i guess

"Like the EP being dated. 1/3 of the league are using it in some form. Same can be said about our scouting system. About 10-12 teams use it in some variation. It's not bc it's outdated."

The way its used here it is. If you want to keep the basics, since terminology seems to be a problem, just compare Receiver package usage 5/0/0, 4/1/0, 3/2/0, WR, TE, RB). We are in the bottom of the league. Which teams are comparing to? Hopefully none of the High-powered offenses around the NFL, bc we are nothing alike

As far as I know, EP is basically a system designed to give skill players option, based on schemes, positioning, personnel etc, etc. Why dont we use "bunch formations" as much as the best Offensive teams? Thats what I want to know

"Also the Pats were in the top half of the league in term motion at the snap throughout most the season I believe. Like 14 in the league around Nov."

Top average league. Does sounds like we using it marginally, as in, is not a primary philosophy. Yeah, i agree, i guess. Should be higher IMO

"It sounds like your problem is with the personnel bc Josh has done a fantastic job at maximizing this current group under a rookie QB. Both had clear ceilings this year and they hit them."
Maybe. Things will change in 2022, Im excited by it. Hopefully then what i perceive as problems are tuened around


"We should want more insight and detail here not less."

Enough?
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
It’s a fair point, but we also had a few players that were the best to ever play their respective positions on the team. That can paper over a lot.
Gilmore? He was great but I would definitely not call him the best CB of all time for the Patriots.

In my book, he's battling for 4th position in that regard.

Who else am I missing? I can't think of a single guy who is possibly the best defender we've ever had at his position.

Maybe you're referring to a younger McCourty versus the old guy we have now? That would make sense.

Regardless, give Belichick players like we had 2 years ago, and I'm sure we'd be a lot better than this.
 

JayNM

In the Starting Line-Up
5 Wide Receiver sets? Or just 5 wide formations? Again, you throw around terms you do not understand. You say "personnel choice" so I'll assume you actually want teams to use 5 wide receiver personnel packages.
  • 5 Wide Receiver sets? This is a personnel package. And no team actually uses a 5 WRs at once as it would be a clear indicator, in the huddle, to the opposing D that 1) it won't be a run play. 2) It will only be 5 man protection (i.e. since no HB or TE to block). Also, defense would have no need for LBs. So, You'd be looking at two things...either the D will dial up exotic blitzes (no protection), or just play two deep safties (much harder to throw against) with DBs across the board. This is why you virtually never see 5 wide receiver personnel.
  • Or do you just mean Five Wide? As in "empty" formations. Again empty there is no run threat, but teams use a RB and TE in the personell since where LBs line up will be an easy indicator of man vs zone. Put the RB outside and if a LB is on him, it;s man. IF the LB stays inside, it's zone. NE uses this ALL THE TIME.
Also, the formation you listed below is an UNBALANCED FORMATION! This is just laughable. I bet you never even noticed. Look At the O-Line; two tackles are to the left, the X is right next to the guard. The Pats did this back in 2014 when they called "Baltimore !" & "Raven" and had a TE (Hoo-Man) catch passes despite being lined up in the position of a OT. Harbaugh whined about it.



trips-left-strong-43-delay.jpg
u sound mad.

r u mad?

boo-hoo. Didnt read ur post, wont read any subsequent.

But thats on me, ive said bye already. U dont even deserve once
 

JayNM

In the Starting Line-Up
??

What are the bad seeds?
Hah. I mean, doesnt my OP makes at least somewhat clear what i think?

In any case, no one knows precisely, much less a fan. They have a lot of heads there to find that out themselves. Its just not hide-able anymore that *it* exists
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
Hah. I mean, doesnt my OP makes at least somewhat clear what i think?

In any case, no one knows precisely, much less a fan. They have a lot of heads there to find that out themselves. Its just not hide-able anymore that *it* exists
There's a lot in your OP but I am one of the people who were against nepotism on the basis of nepotism alone fairly early in the season.

I don't like it

It doesn't inspire confidence. It never turns out well.

That being said, I trust BB.
 

Fubby

Practice Squad Player
Gilmore? He was great but I would definitely not call him the best CB of all time for the Patriots.

In my book, he's battling for 4th position in that regard.

Who else am I missing? I can't think of a single guy who is possibly the best defender we've ever had at his position.

Maybe you're referring to a younger McCourty versus the old guy we have now? That would make sense.

Regardless, give Belichick players like we had 2 years ago, and I'm sure we'd be a lot better than this.
Talking about the offensive side of the ball (Brady, Gronk, Edelman). Best defense is a good offense.
 

upstater1

Pro Bowl Player
Talking about the offensive side of the ball (Brady, Gronk, Edelman). Best defense is a good offense.
In that game we're referencing from Feb 2019, the offense was more a popgun offense. The defense dominated an explosive Rams offense. It really was a total defensive effort with the offense not doing much.

We pretty much won because of Belichick and the defenders.
 
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