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Discussion in 'The PatsFans.com Pub' started by ArchAngel007, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yep, we're talking about the same concept. The nature of punishment described in the Gospels seems to fall in line with the idea of hell; unquenched fires and what not. I believe Jesus has a parable where he consigns unbelievers to eternal fires (in Matthew?). I'm also fairly certain that the word Tartarus is used in the New Testament to describe the torments that await unbelievers.

    Now, it is possible that the Catholic church advanced those teachings to the forefront, and that's not something I can really comment on, as I'm not really a student of Christianity. Of note, in talking to Eastern Orthodox Christians, a couple of them contend that Jesus didn't die to save people from eternal torment, but from death itself. I didn't understand what they meant, and one guy even tried to explain it, but it was a little difficult to follow.

    By the way, the Valley of Hinnom is...eh...just a valley to me, but it is most definitely just a valley.
     
  2. PP2

    PP2 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I think belief in eternal punishment in hell was a pagan belief embraced and christianized by the church in Rome in the early years of the history of Christianity. The doctrine of everlasting punishment in hell is, I also think, founded upon a combination of mistranslations and misinterpretations, especially with the words we discuss- sheol, ghenna, and even hades (place of the dead).

    Here is an interesting passage I found regarding your pointing out of the "eternal fires" phrase in Matthews (and I think you're referring to Matthews 25:46):

    Mistranslations of Aionios

    Matthew 25:46
    And these will go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.

    This is a mistranslated verse, which first appeared as a mistranslation in the Latin Vulgate around 400 AD in support of the Roman Catholic doctrine of hell. The KJV and other subsequent versions of the Bible that support the doctrine of hell have carried forward this mistranslated verse into their own versions.

    Augustine (354-430 AD), a fifth century Roman Catholic saint, who championed the doctrine of hell, depended heavily on this single verse to argue the case for endless punishment of unbelievers in hell. Augustine argued that since Jesus used the same word aionios to describe both the duration of the future punishment of unbelievers and the future life of the righteous, then it necessarily follows that the future punishment of unbelievers will be everlasting just like the future life of the righteous. The problem Augustine had was that he strongly believed in the pagan doctrine of hell and he totally ignored, or was ignorant of the fact, that aion and its adjective aionios have two meanings in the Bible of age and everlasting depending on the context.

    Now, let us understand the correct translation of Matthew 25:46 and the true meaning of what Jesus Christ is saying in this verse.

    As we have demonstrated, to translate aionios punishment to mean everlasting or eternal punishment is a mistranslation because it brings contradiction into the Word of God. In addition to this, it should be noted that the Greek word for punishment used in Matthew 25:46 is kolasis, and the meaning of kolasis is ‘corrective punishment’ as confirmed by Strong’s Concordance number G2851. So, the true meaning of Matthew 25:46 as dictated by the context is:

    Matthew 25:46
    And these will go away into age-to-come, age-lasting (aionios) corrective punishment (kolasis), but the righteous into age-to-come eternal (aionios) life.


    The notion that "Jesus died for our sins" has got to be probably the biggest misunderstanding and misconception as far as how modern Christians construe the bible and its teachings.

    I'd daresay it arose from the overuse and misuse of John 3:16.
     
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  3. TheBostonStraggler

    TheBostonStraggler Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    "They are fleeing war/terrorists" is a talking point to evoke sympathy among the masses. It's equivalent to a poster of puppy dog shivering in the rain. It's the proverbial "but what about the children!". It's simply meant to evoke emotion and cloud pragmatism.
    FYI, plenty of data to conclude the mass migration to Europe is for a variety of reasons some of which are far from "these are the same people the refugees are running away from".

    If you want to suggest, per your belief, that "these are SOME of the same people the refugees are running away from" then I suspect the odds are fair you may be correct though it is still unsubstantiated. But I am sure you and everyone else are completely for a full vetting of the people from that part of the world that we will let into this country and we will be taking only those "running away from" the criminals, right?
     
  4. oldrover

    oldrover "You're gonna have to serve somebody..." PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, the security system is set now to make it difficult to leave. The borders, right?

    And I agree about not letting them in in the first place. I assume that's what you're saying.
     
  5. PP2

    PP2 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Well I certainly don't mean any refugees, but I do believe that people fleeing Syria are trying to escape the horrific conditions there. I don't think we should prevent anyone trying to get away from a collapsing government and a country that's descended into complete chaos and war, do you? Should we not help them?
     
  6. PP2

    PP2 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    What I'm saying is to address the problem before it becomes a problem.
     
  7. oldrover

    oldrover "You're gonna have to serve somebody..." PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And what yesterday's events are saying is that it's too late for that.
     
  8. TheBostonStraggler

    TheBostonStraggler Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    PP2, I mean no direct offense but that was approaching a complete avoidance of the point. You said "these are the same people the refugees are running away from". Whether we should help is a different question.

    The data points are there to show the immigrants are leaving that part of the world for not the same reasons. For example, the significant economic migrant numbers are now documented. We also know a significant majority is male. We also now know at least 1, possibly at least 8, is a soldier sent to conduct military operations in what traditionally is considered an act of war.
    Another avoided question: should we completely vet anyone allowed entry into the USA from that area of the world? Since that area of the world is factually the home of the country who is conducting a full time war and is a major exporter of soldiers to commit acts of war as well as extensive recruiting of 'lone wolves' soldiers, the avoided question of "should all be thoroughly vetted" still stands as not only pragmatic but a documented duty of the government to perform.

    As to your new question of whether we should help those embroiled in conflict, poverty, repression etc I believe the USA should always look to be a sympathetic country that will aid those less fortunate when viable. I will dispense with the 19 trillion dollars the american people are in direct debt for as well as the 13 trillion in unfunded liabilities that we currently have little ability or will to pay -- liabilities that pay for things needed most by people who paid into said purpose of the liabilities and will need it to maintain just a basic american living standard. I'll dispense with the moral obligation to tend that first considering our massive growing debt.
    So let's say we double who we 'let in'....no let's triple it. Does this mean we're great and a wonderful kind people right?? I mean this goes right to helping to fix the problem of the many many many millions embroiled in conflict, poverty, repression etc right? But for argument's sake let's say 'letting in' triple does little to cure the ills of the many many many millions suffering. If that is true isn't your idea back to the shivering puppies in the rain and 'what about the children!'?
    Hey, I am sure I am crazy when I say the "letting in" is rank symbolism that does the equivalent of starting the Lotto over there for a small group of winners to live a better life. I must be crazy when I say let's be pragmatic: Anyone who comes here is fully vetted and without a whisper of ties to support or participation in...oh what's the phrase....perverting true islam? And any of our in debted treasure is best spent over there to help far more of those embroiled in conflict, poverty, repression etc instead of a small minority given a lotto ticket (but we could give each one of them a shivering puppy too)??

    My caustic sarcasm aside, that's called pragmatism. It sets in motion the right kind of decision making that will filter everywhere and helps the greatest number of people here and there. However, there will stil be a puppy dog shivering on TV and man do we need to abandon all hope of pragmatism at any cost so we can take care of that problem ASAP (and get it on TV too!).
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Pro Bowl Player

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    I understand that you do not want this to be true.

    The NY Times, Huffington Post and other Islamic Scholars that have explained the ISIS doctrine cannot all be wrong.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/world/middleeast/isis-abu-bakr-baghdadi-caliph-wahhabi.html

    “It is a kind of untamed Wahhabism,” said Bernard Haykel, a scholar at Princeton. “Wahhabism is the closest religious cognate.”

    For their guiding principles, the leaders of the Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL, are open and clear about their almost exclusive commitment to the Wahhabi movement of Sunni Islam. The group circulates images of Wahhabi religious textbooks from Saudi Arabia in the schools it controls. Videos from the group’s territory have shown Wahhabi texts plastered on the sides of an official missionary van.
     

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