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OT: Prayers/ Good vibes for France

Discussion in 'The PatsFans.com Pub' started by ArchAngel007, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. PP2

    PP2 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I don't like what the term "Islamism" has come to mean, because that term is very misleading.

    At it's very core, the religion of Islam is actually similar to other religions of the world in that it preaches non-violence and love for all humankind. So I think that's what Islamism should mean.

    For every quote from the Koran espousing violence, I can show you a quote from the Koran that espouses peace and love. The bible is no different. The old testament is full of violence and genocide, the new testament is full of love and forgiveness.

    I think it's important to understand that the people that carry out those attacks are nothing more than disenfranchised people without identity or purpose, who turn to violence to give them the illusion of power and purpose.
     
  2. shmessy

    shmessy . PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ah, but this WASN'T a "religious/political thread"!

    Read IcyPatriots' title again.........and the first few posts, before the usual started to happen (many of which were deleted out)

    Yup, I hear you, that PoFo is a sewer.

    If you saw the posts that were deleted in here blaming Bush or Obama for last night (instead of simply offering what the thread was all about - condolences to the stunned people of Paris), you would understand.

    Some people cannot help themselves. Nothing wrong with being angry at the fecking bastards who do this crap and to want to see them instantly incinerated - - I certainly do - - but there is a time and place for that. Not in a condolence card.

    But now I've moved the thread, so everyone can have at it.
     
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  3. neuronet

    neuronet Homer Little PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks shmessy for trying. Sad that some people had to mutilate the thread into being about them and their politics. I appreciate that you tried to do the right thing; apparently some people are unable to let it happen.
     
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  4. Triumph

    Triumph Pro Bowl Player

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    What part about " not adhering to their brand of Islam" confused you?

    ISIS has references in the Koran that justify their actions.
     
  5. PatriotsPimp136

    PatriotsPimp136 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    In this age of society i feel people should be armed or more security. The french intelligence was a major fail. Prayers to those souls and their families:(
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Pro Bowl Player

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    None because they have relevance to what just happened.
     
  7. PP2

    PP2 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    You said: "Some call it radical Islam, but its actually Islam in its purest form."

    I would like to stress that Islamism in its purest form preaches love, peace, and fellowship, just as every other religion does.

    Unfortunately there is always room for misinterpretation, or for extremists to take advantage.

    For example, there are also plenty of "justifications" in the old testament that Christian militants take advantage of. To cite a few examples:

    “When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)


    “When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)


    Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)


    These as you probably know, are isolated quotes taken out of context, just as certain quotes are taken out of context from the Koran to justify the actions of Middle East extremists who are nothing more than disenfranchised people- and in this case, ISIS consist of thousands of disenfranchised Sunni's who were kicked out of work/power when the Hussein regime was destroyed.
     
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  8. oldrover

    oldrover "You're gonna have to serve somebody..." PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I didn't say prayer was inaction. I said it was important. When the robbers break into my house, I'll pray for my family. I'll pray that the criminals see the light and give themselves up, even repent. But I'll do it while I'm ****ing my shotgun.
     
  9. PP2

    PP2 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I view robbers the same way you do, with nothing but contempt. I have no respect for people who take shortcuts in life by taking advantage of other people.

    The only way I differ is a matter of strategy: wouldn't it be better to defeat those robbers before they ever got to the house?

    Same way with ISIS.

    There's a reason why Sun Tzu in the "Art of War" says the most important part of warfare is to understand your enemy, and when you do, you can engage in psychological warfare (all warfare is based on deception) which will always defeat the enemy quicker than fighting on his terms, or the way he wants you to.
     
  10. oldrover

    oldrover "You're gonna have to serve somebody..." PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's all well and good theory, but I bet the French would say the robber is already in the house. And a lot of other nations probably feel the same way, ours included.
     
  11. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    ISIS started in 1999 and the leader was Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
     
  12. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't know if you're simplifying things on purpose, but you can't just pull verses from the Quran and form a theological argument. To say "for every quote from the Koran" is missing entire pieces of what forms Islamic theology. I'm going to assume you've never formally studied the Quran, so I don't know why you're taking on a position of authority when you're slamming anybody for making their own amateurish interpretations (likely not even theirs, but pulled from the interwebs) of Islam.

    Your characterization of the "old testament" and "new testament" is pretty Christian-centric and incorrect, but that's going off the rails.
     
  13. PP2

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    Instead of criticizing, why don't you explain where you think I've gone wrong?

    Have you formally studied the Koran?

    Also why do you believe my characterization of the OT and NT is Christian-centric and incorrect? I'd be interested in knowing why you think that way.
     
  14. PP2

    PP2 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    On this occasion yes, but that doesn't mean it has to happen again the same way, next time.
     
  15. oldrover

    oldrover "You're gonna have to serve somebody..." PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am confused. We are talking about 'this occasion'. In France, the robber is in the house. Is your response to the French to pray and comfort their loved ones, and do nothing else regarding the physical presence of their intruders?
     
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  16. nabwong

    nabwong Vice President of Boycott NFL Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There's a lot of misinformation in this thread. Then there's also some people spouting one-sided-no-experience-or-perspective information. I wonder if you've been to the middle east, or maybe have friends from there and not just know it from news outlets only showing you the terrible side of that region. The MAJORITY of every community is peace loving and friendly. Guess what they're showing on TV in other countries? But because you have already established an opinion and then received that confirmation via news outlet, that is confirmation bias. If you start with a conclusion, you'll end up at the same conclusion.
     
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  17. Oswlek

    Oswlek Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    A few years back I would have said the same thing, but it really isn't true. The reason most followers of most religions are kind to most people most of the time is that we are biologically programmed to behave in that manner. Where Christianity has a leg up on Islam is not in a lack a barbaric doctrines - ****, a key tenet is that human sacrifice of one man somehow saves another from being punished for the mistakes made by totally different people - it's that Christians have mostly rationalized away all the heinous stuff as being metaphors or directed toward people of that time more than now.

    Even then, it is still divisive at its core. Christians may not believe apostasy should be punished by death, but many of them believe God is going to send those people to hell. Only those that share the precise version of the same deity are in the group and worthy of being saved. Or look at those who want to refuse marriage to people solely on the grounds of sexual orientation for a tamer example.

    "Moderate" vs "extremist" isn't sensible vs crazy (to be simplistic), it is those who have blended secular and religious morality vs. those who accept religious teachings as fact. It should be telling that the vast majority of people consider those who actually believe their good books are true to be off their rockers.

    And even if you disagree with all of this, the fact remains that the bad is just as frequent as the good in religious texts. Without any evidence to suggest what is true, what is metaphor, what is important and what is outdated, how can anyone say what is really at the heart of these things? This is precisely why these doctrines deserve not sacred treatment, but skepticism.
     
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  18. PP2

    PP2 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Not trying to confuse things further, but to continue your metaphor of "robber in the house," for France, the robber has already broken in and caused a lot of damage and left. That's it, it's done, it's over with. Nothing can undo that.

    But the one thing we can do is to prevent this from happening again, and your metaphorical position (if I understand it correctly) is that you're going to be sitting in the house with your shotgun ****ed and ready to unload, the next time the robbers return.

    What I am suggesting is, why not be proactive and act before they even get anywhere near the house?

    That requires really understanding what is going on, who those robbers are, and what they want (and please don't mistake this as an act of sympathy because it isn't).

    I do understand this is a radical simplification of a problem that's very complex and bigger than all of us, but better to understand it and be prepared than not.
     
  19. PP2

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    I don't disagree. I think it's a very interesting take on things and one that I didn't really think about.
     
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  20. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not trying to get into a multi-post debate, because frankly, I don't have the time to do it. My intent was to have you look more closely at your assertions and try to justify them through study of the Quran, Sunnah, Hadiths, and Fiqh. But the bottom line is your quote here:

    That's simply incorrect. At its very core, Islam is about the worship of and submission to the one, singular, omnipotent god, Allah. All else is derived from that basic principle. Islamic views on peace and warfare are complicated, and vary according to the Madahib which you're addressing, so one can't boil it down to a bumper sticker slogan.

    To call it a "religion of peace" or a "religion of death" is to simplify it to the point of being cartoonish. But, even then, we're talking high in the clouds about theology regarding a faith that legislates levels of observance. Frankly, aside from the basics, most Muslims don't concern themselves with the strictest levels of observance and Quranic study, so painting Muslims with any broad brush based upon Islamic theology, whether orthodox to a school or not, is a fool's errand.

    However, the mere fact that Islam legislates the conditions for Jihad bil-Saif belies your comment that Islam "preaches non-violence". I'm not sure where you get the idea that Islam "preaches love for all humankind". Islamic teachings are pretty pragmatic, considering the nature of the faith, when it comes to how humans are treated; slavery is legal, Shari'a application varies according the belief system of the person being subjected to it, yet some non-believers enjoy certain levels of protection and privilege. Whatever "love for all humankind" means, it's pretty plain that the issue is far more complicated than a pithy phrase.

    Yes. But I don't enjoy debating it.

    Full disclosure: I'm a Jew, so take it for what it's worth.

    I'll pose a question, or a series of questions; what's worse? Dying, or eternal torment in some sulfury underworld?

    Rewards and punishment for Jews in the "old testament" centered completely on good or bad fortune in this world, with death the ultimate price. In the "new testament", mere unbelief is enough to damn one to eternal torment. Neither are great, but which sounds more merciful to you?
     
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